Kryptonite, the race for talent, and neurodiversity at work with Theo Smith

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KK Harris: Welcome everyone to this week’s episode of Voices. My name is KK Harris and I’m one of the Executive Coach Directors at Talking Talent. I’m very excited today because we have a guest. He is the author of this book, “Neurodiversity at Work.” Yes, I’ve got your copy, to “Drive Innovation, Performance, and Productivity with a Neurodiverse Workforce.” Welcome Mr. Theo Smith, how are you today?

Theo Smith: Woo! Thank you! Hello. Pleased to meet you.

KK: It seems that we just did a colour coordination kind of conversation, but we didn’t. But you are a brother from another mister, mother, whoever. It’s a treat because we both have something in common and that something has brought us together. We are neurodiverse people. We are not neurotypical. We are neurodiverse people, and I am ADHD. Only earlier this year, I had a late diagnosis. Although I will say that it was something that I knew was there having studied psychoanalysis and psychology and everything else. But I think I was in denial for at least about five or six years. I didn’t know when I was younger. And you are also ADHD, but you have other neurodiversity as well. Please just fill us in a little bit about you.

Theo: Yeah, of course. No problem. Thank you. Yeah, we share that connection straight away you just get it. You feel the energy and the connection, and it builds. It’s a strange thing that I only really experience this with other people who are neurodiverse, who may be ADHD or dyslexic, or there’s just something around the way the brain works that build this kind of incredible energy.

KK: Absolutely.

Theo: So, yeah, the interesting thing for me is a lot of people now are finding out that they are neurodiverse. Neurodiverse is everyone so some people get a little bit annoyed when I use the term neurodiverse, but tough because it’s me talking about it.

KK: It’s me. Don’t try to take anything from me.

Theo: They say that neurodiverse is everyone so you can’t be everyone. Although ultimately, I’m empowered in myself to say that there’s something about me that is different, and that difference is around, I’ve been marginalized through the education system, the political system, through the work system, because of the way my brain works. It ain’t broken. It doesn’t need fixing. And I now know that, and I feel good about that, and I post about that fact. It’s incredible and when I focus on being my incredible self, people are like, hey, the energy you bring Theo. Woah! People have Theo in a corner, Theo in a box.

KK: Don’t put me in a box.

Theo: I’m suppressing that energy. Co-occurrence is the norm. It’s more likely that you are not just ADHD. You’re more likely ADHD, dyslexic, maybe autistic, maybe a bit of dyscalculia. But we don’t want to collect tags, but the reality is our brains are complex like thumbprints. So that’s me and I found out I was dyslexic at 21, but I didn’t find out really that I associated with ADHD, like you, until about three years ago when I was like…

KK: Wow!

Theo: …oh, you can be more than one. You don’t have to be in 24/7 care or have an ASBO or have gone to prison, although I’ve come close, but you don’t have to have done those things to be ADHD.

KK: That comes from this idea about neurodiverse people. And the truth comes from the fact like, you kind of said, you get let down in the education system and so there are a lot of young men and women, boys, and girls, I should say, starting from there, that are pushed to the side. They’re not teachable or they’re disruptive and it really is just a system that’s broken. Hopefully, with parents listening to this, they will understand that your child is not broken. Your child is just neurodiverse and that’s a good thing. Talking about neurodiversity, you wrote this fabulous book. And one of the reasons why we’re here today is I want to talk about some of the content of the book. I’m so happy I just got my copy the other day. I was only able to skim through it so hopefully, when we meet up, I’m going to bring this and you’re going to sign this for me. But this is a really good piece of work. This is a really good piece of work.

Before we dive into that I want to read to the audience a little bit of what people are saying on the back. You’ve got some heavy hitters and I want to ask you some questions about who they are as well, and the relationships you have with them. But the book is “Neurodiversity at Work.” I’ve said it already and it’s about driving innovation, performance, and productivity with a neurodiverse workforce. On the back here, we’ve got somebody special. I’m going to read the quote and it says, “This book clearly explains the necessity to pay close attention to every employee’s individual needs and leverage everyone’s extra special capabilities in unique and powerful ways.” That was by Josh Bersin, principal and founder of Bersin by Deloitte. I mean, that’s some seriousness. I want to ask you: how do you two know each other? That’s a big heavy hitter.

Theo: Yeah. So, as part of being a little bit different, a little bit crazy, I like to chase people around and try and get time with them. For years I’ve been trying to track Josh down and get a video because I do a lot of content myself on Chat Talent, which we’ll come onto, but I was an editor for them. We were in Amsterdam and the first time I managed to organize to video Josh, and, in the end, it didn’t happen. Long story short, I was at this big conference. and then every conference after that, that Josh was at I was like, tweeting him, hey, Josh, Josh, we’ve got to meet up. We’ve got to meet up. Anyway, long story short in the end, I started writing this and I reached out to him, and I was like, Josh you are one of the leading figures in HR data and analytics. You created Bersin that became Bersin by Deloitte because it was acquired by Deloitte. I mean, incredible organization, incredible figure. You can go and hear him. Basically, there was a connection and that connection led me to say, hey, Josh, I’d love it if you would read an early copy of my book. And you know what, he is incredible because he said Theo, absolutely. I approached other people and a lot of people who just went, what you are doing, I respect appreciate and I’m going to give you my time, which is limited, and I’m going to read your book. And he came back with some really kind words. This is what he came back for the book, but he’s just been generous.

KK: That is fantastic. That’s fantastic. And it keeps going. Another quote is, “An inspiring read, providing practical ways for inclusivity of neural diversity to drive innovation and growth.” Now that’s by Christine Ramsay. She’s a CDP, that’s a Certified Diversity Professional, Global Senior Diversity Equity, Inclusion, and Engagement Leader at Jazz Pharmaceuticals. Tell me, how did you get Christine Ramsay?

Theo: Yeah. Again, just as we met. It’s kind of almost by chance, the stars aligned, and I see a post about you. You’re already thinking about me. I connect, you connect, all of a sudden, we’re doing this, right. Boom! It was a similar thing with Christine and we just chat. She’s in the US, I’m here and I lean on her, and she leans on me. Basically, I only got a text from her yesterday saying Theo, just to say this is one the most incredible books I’ve ever read. I mean this is not a novel, but Amanda and I put our hearts and souls into this book. We’re not like, hey, we need to write a book. This was missing in the world. It wasn’t there. I couldn’t find it. I needed this book three years ago and it wasn’t there, and that’s why we wrote it. So, these are the connections that we’ve got that have said this about it. They bought into the blood, sweat, and tears that Amanda and I have put into it. Two people, Amanda as well with ADHD, trying to write a book. Amanda’s written five of them so actually, she can do it, but I tell you, it was a crazy two years.

KK: Right. That’s fantastic and someone says, “A book that will enable you to think differently about people who think differently. An incredibly insightful read.” That was by Alan Walker Co-founder of Udder and Co-founder and Editor in Chief of Chat Talent. Now Chat Talent’s quite big. You said that. Tell the audience if they don’t know who Chat Talent is.

Theo: It’s basically a communications channel within the talent market. So, they put out newsletters each week and content information. They run webinars and I was their European editor for a period of time. When I started to focus on neurodiversity, that’s where I published my early stuff, where I was getting the things going out in my brain. But it’s like 5,000 people as part of that community. Alan also understands the HR tech world really well. He’s an advisor in that market. So, again, it’s just another angle. It’s another area, understanding of the power of what neurodiversity can mean within organizations at every level, not just IBM and Microsoft, but right down to these innovative, fast-growth companies that are the future influence of tomorrow.

KK Harris: Yes. I’ve heard that and I’ve got a lot of neurodiverse people in tech, a lot of neurodiverse people in tech. I have a twin brother and he is dyslexia. He got that diagnosed again, in our twenties. He’s not been diagnosed for ADHD; I have no doubt he’s ADHD. I have a certain level of, I’m sure dyslexia for myself. There are certain things that I know that are like, oh, that just doesn’t make sense or something. I have to see things in a flow, a nice flow. It’s a story. It’s got to be a story. It’s got to be a story. Even with my coaching, my executive coaching for Talking Talent, as I’m working with people and I’m hearing them, I’m hearing the stories of their lives and I’m getting in between and I’m seeing where they have blind spots.

I honestly believe it’s because of my neurodiversity, that ADHD, the need to have story, that I’m able to help my clients find freedom. Find freedom from what is holding them back, freedom from whatever that looks like for them. I think it is a superpower. Now what I do want to go to is talking about superpowers. It’s interesting in chapter four, and this is how we linked up is so interesting. Chapter four is called “Eliminating Kryptonite and Enabling Superheroes.” Now get this. So, Theo and I connected because I put a post out. I invested me some money, I got a drone guy and everything invested the money to where I would become the superhero. I get a text. You see me I get a text. The person is like, I’m scared. They want to tell their boss that they are ADHD. Help! I go into a phone box; I then do this thing. I’ve got a pink cape on. And for me, it’s part of my journey to accept my neurodiversity, and also feel it’s about calling it out and helping people understand is what you’re saying, you’ve got a superpower. Your brain works differently.

Our brains have had to do some other kind of muscle work to be able to be as creative as we are. My career prior to coaching, I was a singer/songwriter for many years. I was full-on hyper energy on stage doing funk, soul, drum and bass, and house, and new jazz or whatever it was called back in the day. But I was able to constantly flex and change and I honestly believe it is because of my neurodiversity. But this is really interesting here. You have on page 62, chapter four, you said, “I want to talk about that eliminating kryptonite.” What is your kryptonite and what is the kryptonite you were talking about?

Theo Smith: Yeah. So, a couple of things there. One, some people get a bee in their bonnet talking about superheroes and superpowers in this context. Let me just tell you this is an individual decision. I am no longer going to be deemed by anybody else to be a disorder or a deficit. I’m no longer going to have my children be deemed as a disorder or a deficit. I’m not having it. Other people, they choose what they want to do. I’m going to define what they do as incredible. They are superheroes to me and that’s how I’m going to define them. The day, three years ago, two years ago, whatever it was, that I realized that I’m not going to have a lid put on me. I’m going to focus on my strengths and that is how I’m going to be different. That’s how I’m going to be powerful, and that’s how I’m going to make a difference in this world, and it works. It’s true.

KK: What is your kryptonite?

Theo: So, the kryptonite. Yeah, well the kryptonite is those things that disempower us. So, we all want Superman. Lasers from the eyes, fly, Superman’s incredible. Wouldn’t you want Superman in a team? Superman! Superman! Then Superman comes in and then we go, hey Superman, we’re going to clip your wings, we’re going to tie you to the chair and then you’ve got to listen to all this crazy noise that’s going to annoy you, and we’re not going to allow you to leave the chair when you need time. So basically, we’re going to clip your wings – and that’s kryptonite. Kryptonite is when you put things in place that have a detrimental negative impact on that individual’s ability to be their selves. So, that in itself, nobody can deny that. Kryptonite exists in all our lives. It’s just if you are in a wheelchair and somebody puts stairs in front of you and says go, you ain’t going nowhere.

That’s easy for somebody to visualize. Okay, wheelchair, steps, no chance. That is what’s happening with the brain. We’re having stairs put up in front of us when we have an inability with our brain to get up those stairs, and then we’re being punished for it, and we feel less than. So, if that’s kryptonite and superhero, I’m not saying neurodiversity is a superpower. I’m saying individuals have incredible capabilities that we just do not recognize, and we do not respect. My view is even as simple as plugging a gap for somebody that is like a superpower because, for me, I hate admin. Really, I can’t remember more than three things. My wife sends me down the shop. She gives me five things. I come back with three, only two of them are what she asked for because I swap one of her things with one of my things. That’s the way it is. She could spend the rest of our life quarrelling for it or she could just accept that she needs to give me a really robust list and highlight what I have to come back with otherwise I get what I love. Then I’m like, okay.

KK: You speak my truth you know. I left a role in April, and I left that role and I put a post out. This wasn’t a video. It was: I resigned from my job because I’m ADHD. I think 99 people have made some type of reaction to it. People had messaged me behind the scenes. I left that role because I realized that there were things that I couldn’t do. I couldn’t step up to the plate and feel good about myself. In a very short period of time, I had accumulated so much physical stress on my body because I was trying to fit in somewhere that I couldn’t fit. It was a month prior, I think, or so, six weeks prior, I had gotten my diagnosis and I was motivated to get that diagnosis Theo, because that was where all of my truth was being highlighted. There’s something going on. You need to find out KK. What is it? Then luckily at that time, a colleague said to me, in a private conversation, he says, I notice something in you that reminds me of myself. He very gently asked the question. He says, are you ADHD? I dropped my head and I said, I’m sure I am. I just haven’t had the diagnosis. We had a conversation. I got off that call and I went and I found online where I could have my diagnosis. Now I want to talk to you about diagnosis, I want to talk to you about shame, the feeling of shame when you have that diagnosis or when you are at work. Have you experienced that?

Theo Smith: Yeah, and it’s not just shame right. So, one element of it is you’ve been marginalized, and you’ve had trauma in your life. That trauma is around the way you’ve been treated because of your unique brain.

KK Harris: I was called flakey, I was called ditzy, I was called oh, she’s smart but you know, she’s ditzy. It was just these labels. Oh, she’s so disorganized, or you talk too much. Every school report was, oh, she’s really good but if she just wouldn’t talk so much, if she wouldn’t fidget so much. Right now, my hands are moving below, and you can’t see that on the screen. My feet are moving. I’ve heightened energy because we’re together. And sometimes people can take that energy, like, oh, it’s chaotic. So, all these labels. So go on. I’m so sorry for interrupting you.

Theo: No, no, no, you need to because your experience is as valid as mine or anybody else’s and it’s unique. So, it’s important you share that. There’s another reason why it’s very important that you shared it rather than me because women, my daughter – I’ve been told in regard to my daughter – are much more likely just to be forgotten about, because what happens is when they get to high school, they’re not a problem, potentially. They don’t cause havoc. They’re much more likely to, depending on how their brain works, much more likely just to sit quietly in the corner and not say they’re struggling. My daughters very talkative in my view, but are much less likely to put their hand up and say, I’m really struggling here.

KK: That was me. That was me.

Theo: They’ll do something else. They’ll keep themselves busy or they’ll talk to their friends but they’re not going to show they are struggling. So, the teacher doesn’t see them as a problem, so they don’t need to fix them. Not that they need fixing but in the sense that…

KK: They don’t support them.

Theo: Yeah, they don’t even do anything. They just leave them. So, it’s like, they’re not solving the problem. So, that’s why important that you mentioned that, because this is a real problem we have in the education system today, not 20 years ago, like when I was there, a while ago. But not then, but it’s now, we face this problem now. So, this shame, this trauma is happening to our children today in our schools and that is why…

KK: Still happening Theo, still happening…

Theo: Still happening. So that’s what the shame is.

KK: …and that’s a crying shame.

Theo: It is, so we need to do something about it. You add intersectionality, you add the complex, you add equity, the lack of equity.

KK: The lack of equity.

Theo: Gender, race, what your community thinks.

KK: The economic situation. When we talk about that, the lack of equity. Now across the board, I’ve spoken to mothers who are struggling even in what is deemed to be a good, more affluent community, where they’re still struggling though with these issues around neurodiversity and the support, or the lack of support in schools. I want to take it into the workforce, into the professional space. Let’s look at the professional space. I read somewhere that one in seven employees are neurodiverse. Do you know that stat? I can’t remember where I got that from.

Theo: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I mean, I’ll give you the stats. There’s all different types of statistics around this and perhaps Amanda can share some of this. But they’re lower because the statistical data is trying to go off as much factual information, evidence-based research. But the problem is that gives it a lower number because you and I both know, but we weren’t diagnosed in school. So, I mean, they’re still not being diagnosed in school and especially if you’re a girl and then all the other complexities. So the numbers are much lower than they should be. The reality is, we reckon, and some like the Dyslexia Association, other associations, come out 20 to 30%. So that’s two to three people in every 10 are neurodiverse or neurodivergent or marginalized by the way their brain works. So, three out of 10.

KK: You used the word neurodivergent. Just so our audience: listening why did you use that terminology?

Theo: Because…

KK: …that terminology is different than neurodiversity. Can you explain that?

Theo: Yeah, definitely because I have this conflict that I’m constantly dealing with between my creative forward-thinking mind, and what people use as the correct terminology based on the English language and where we sit today. So, neurodivergent as a term is diverging from the normal stream. Yeah. So, neurotypical versus neuroatypical. So neurodiverse is actually correct terminology everybody. Neurodiversity is everybody. The neurodiversity movement is the movement that came about to champion those who are marginalized, by the way their brains think so I prefer that. Marginalized by the way your brain thinks, rather than I’m in a box which is neurodivergent, ADHD.

No, I’ve been marginalized because of the way I think. I’ve been marginalized because I can’t walk up the stairs. I’ve been marginalized because of the color of my skin or because… Whatever other number of things, I’m marginalized. And that is when we talk about equity and ensuring that we give people a platform. So, I do tend to, and we do in the book, and we comment on it, we move around the terminology because it’s still in the very early stages of the element of how this terminology works. So, I encourage people don’t let people beat you over the head with terminology because we need to move forwards with this, not push people back into caves, a fear of not wanting to have that open dialogue.

KK: That brings me to, I put that post up and I think I said it was either, I am, I have ADHD. Someone came right on in that’s… It was just like somebody’s always got to say something. What would you say so people understand? Am I ADHD? Do I have ADHD? What is the correction on that from your experience, your knowledge?

Theo: I would say throw it out the effing window. This is me, and other people they exist and they’re okay, but this is for me and the way I live my life and the way that I make sense of the world, okay. For somebody else, they make sense of the world in a different way. So, some people need to be factual. They need the evidence-based. They need to know that that word fits into that. But the English language is complex and let’s be honest, it doesn’t make sense. I can’t have somebody tell me that is a rule when the English language breaks rules all the time. So, what I would say is I don’t like ADHD because deficit disorder, however, we’re starting to reframe it. The problem we’ve got is we’ve got the medical paradigm of where these were conditions and that they can be fixed and that you can take drugs and you will be better.

KK: Don’t they fall in the category of the DSM-4, DSM-5, or something. I think ADHD falls in line with the diagnostic so that’s where they come up with that terminology. So, even right there it puts us in a category of mental health.

Theo: Yes, and it falls into the disability box. But accounting for there as well as a disability and it just throws that right. It’s only focused on only 4% of companies that focus on D&I. So not every company focuses on D&I, but 4% of the companies that do focus on disability, which is horrendous, and neurodiversity is a subset of disability. So, at the moment, people are focusing on neurodiversity, less than 4% of those companies who are focusing on D&I broadly, which is a crying shame. And part of it is the fear around this medical paradigm. We are human beings; we have unique brains. They put it in this medical box…

KK: Yeah.

Theo: …and we need it unfortunately at the moment because kids need a diagnosis to get support. If you want an educational healthcare plan, which will get you the support within the current school system that doesn’t work, or even in employment. If you want access to work, there’s certain funding that’s only available if you’ve got an educational healthcare plan, which puts you squarely in a disability box, which then forces you back, in my view, back into the kind of medical paradigm of what neurodiversity or neurodiversion is. When in actual fact I’m a human, I personally don’t want drugs, I just want a platform to be my best self and organizations, an education system where everyone else, just allow me to be me. That’s all I want.

KK: When I joined Talking Talent, Scott, who introduced me to Talking Talent, he works – he’s wonderful, absolutely wonderful – at the organization, and one of the things I said I struggle with was Salesforce. Salesforce Lightning, Salesforce Classic, Salesforce period! Don’t tell me to create an Excel spreadsheet, it looks like a foreign language to me. Thankfully, at Talking Talent, we have admin support that makes sure we are meeting the needs of our clients. So, she helps with, I would say 70% of my diary, big shout out to Jane. But I tell you without Jane and her understanding and I’m like, Jane, I’m going to need to do this, but you might have to tell me to do this 50 times, I say, it just won’t land because for the way I have to see things it just doesn’t make sense. And I am thankful for my diagnosis, because I am no longer so hard on myself.

I was so hard on myself for years, all of those labels and all of that self-down talk, it was so painful to go through. Being very mindful of the time, of your time I want to take us to the book here. In chapter 10, you talk about making workplace adjustments. And I should say, I’m sorry, Amanda Kirby is your co-writer of the book as well. So, you and Amanda which you told me she’s also ADHD. So, that was two years and you guys come with this fantastic book. I absolutely love it. But in chapter 10, you talk about taking a person-centered approach and you’ve touched on that as we’ve been talking. Can we talk a little bit about what that is like in the book, that employers should know?

Theo: Hey, that was a lovely segue by the way, because what you touched on before is around you not potentially being supported in the past, and this is what happens. When we talk about a person-centered approach, we get you or me or whoever else go, I’m really struggling with that, admin or technology, and rather than the manager going: cool, okay, what mechanisms or support can we put in place and how can we help you? Here are the bits that you’re struggling with and what technology can we add or what other support? What tends to happen at that moment they go, well nobody else has got help in that particular area. Nobody else. It’d be unfair of me to let you wear noise-canceling headphones and not everybody else. It’d be unfair for me to let you work from home one day a week. It’d be unfair.

Well, the rule book got squarely thrown out the window when COVID hit and the whole world had to change overnight. So, the person-centered approach is focusing on the individual needs to increase their performance, make them happier, health, wellbeing, encourage productivity. This is common sense stuff! Increase productivity, increase sales, revenue, increase innovation in technology. Why wouldn’t you want to do this? But what happens is in this micro-world of this individual manager, they get caught up in these rules and regulations and costs and they forget the human in front of them. The minute they forget that it’s all over, it’s lost the connection, the trust.

KK: I had a boss, last role. She said, look, can we take these targets off of KK and just let her do what KK does best: that’s human connection, that’s building relationships and basically, the response was, that’s what we’re paying her for, that pressure because it was causing a lot of stress and pressure, and that’s what we’re paying her for. Not naming names but that was my experience. And you know what I’m telling you. The amount, I said it was layers of stress on me, because there was not a human-centered approach. It was just, this is how we’re doing it. This is how it should be done.

Coming to Talking Talent, I have to say five o’clock – unless I’ve got some stuff to get done – maybe I finish at 5:30, six o’clock. Theo when I close the computer, I’m at peace. I’m at peace. Do you know what I mean? There is no company that is perfect. But when you see there is, you’re treated as a human being, that no one’s putting you down. People are like, whoa, you got those skills. Oh my God, let’s utilize those skills. Let’s utilize you here. It’s such a wonderful experience and when we think about sustainability, which is a big issue with employee sustainability, this is important. So, this makes me feel like, oh, I’m going to be here. This is where I can grow. I’m being supported. I’m being listened to, and Jane never makes me feel bad for having to ask her how to do something again.

Theo: Well, let me tell you something because there’s some data, there are some stats out at the moment. They’re saying there are more recruiter jobs than developer jobs. That’s the market. It’s more recruiter jobs than developer. Now, I’m not sure there are more recruiters required than developers necessarily, but what the stats are showing is more adverts. Maybe it’s because recruitment jobs advertise more, whatever because developers are harder to find or traditionally work. But what that says to me, which we know, is there is huge competition for talent at the moment, huge. If you’ve not got a focus around the person-centered approach, if you’ve not got a focus around mental health and wellbeing, if you’ve not got a focus around diversifying your workforce, and an important element of that is not just who they are, but the way they think. Honestly, if you are not dealing with that stuff now, it’s 4%, that’s horrendous.

If you get in there, you’re innovators just by doing something you should be doing. You become one of the 4% and I’m telling you, you need to. You can’t be resting on your laurels. That’s what a person-centered approach actually is an opportunity for not just to acquire people, new people, but to activate 20%, 20%, of your workforce that might be underperforming – not because they haven’t got the skills or capabilities to blow the doors off. They’re underperforming because you’re not focusing on them as individuals. You’re not empowering their strengths. You do that – you don’t need to hire too many more people. You’re going to keep people, but also, you’re going to significantly increase productivity, which is all about [rubs fingers together to indicate money]. So, for companies that don’t care about anything else.

KK: Now that takes me to chapter nine, “Interviews and Assessment”. On page 147, you talk about hiring diverse talent, but I want to talk about that assessment and skills test. I did peek in the book, but can you talk about assessments? Let me just say this: I find assessments problematic for people like me. I just say for people like me, or a person that has dyslexia, I find them very problematic. Let’s talk about that.

Theo: So, do I. So, do I. I hate them. So, there are certain things like gamified assessments to bring down a barrier of it, because, for me, it doesn’t work for everybody, a gamified assessment at least takes – what I struggle with, I overthink. So, if I see pick your preference of these four, I’ll spend 10 minutes crushing my brain going well, I’m like that today but yesterday was more like that, and the day before it’s been more like, and sometimes this is how I want to be, but that’s how I am. I’ve got a lot going on in my head, and I know I’m going to start answering it differently each day because my brain is moving at such a rate. Gamified at least take some of that stress out because I’m effectively blowing up a balloon and I start by counting on whatever. So, there are some ways to help.

KK: What is gamified?

Theo: It’s basically taking a form of assessment and putting it in the style of a game. So, basically, if they want to see how risk-averse you are or how risk-taking you are, they’ll get a balloon as a part of the game. You press a button to blow up the balloon and every now and again, the balloon pops and you get money for as long as the balloon doesn’t pop, and it pops at different times. So, the theory is that you’ll do this for a couple of minutes, and you’ll keep popping balloons and it’s how far are you willing to press. Some people would be like, I’m pressing it once and I’m taking the money. I’m pressing it once and I’m taking the money. I’m pressing it once. So, just another way of seeing how you respond that way. This is great but what I’m going to say an assessment is built on old algorithms. These were built 30, 40 years ago by psychologists or whatever. They’re old.

KK: Antiquated.

Theo: They’re still building them.  So, the way I described it is this. We’ve created incredible technology, and by the way, who founded artificial intelligence and machine learning? Well, it was somebody who was on the spectrum, Alan Turing. Of course, it was.

KK: Okay. yeah.

Theo: There was a point where we were at war. Incredible things happen out of a crisis, challenging times. We’ve just gone through COVID: we have an incredible opportunity in terms of assessment and technology. Now, the problem we’ve got with technology, which leads into most assessments…

KK: It’s biased. It’s biased algorithms.

Theo: …on old algorithms. So, we think we’ve created the most incredible technology. It finds candidate gold or employee gold, or basically any gold. But technology is finding this gold for us. But the only problem is because AI and machine learning systems are so good, as it searches for this gold, it throws away diamonds and it throws away pearls because we’ve not built the algorithms to tell it oh, by the way, you’ve got to find gold but if by any chance you come across pearls or diamonds, they’re pretty valuable. So, that’s the problem we’ve got. We’ve got technology that has this shiny surface put on it to make it look incredible and like it’s modern, but it’s built on old algorithms.

KK: Do you know? I want to jump in here. Do you know of any new type of assessments that’s going to find those diamonds, find that those pearls you don’t?

Theo: Well, no. So, we’ve got somebody called Yonah Welker who does a lot of good work around technology within the space. I had him on my podcast some time ago, but he does a lot of good work. Yonah Welker, you can find them on LinkedIn because he will share with you all different technologies. Not just recruitment or talent, beyond global technologies that are trying to change the world for the better, around accessibility for the mind and for the body and everything else. So, the reality is the problem we’ve got is once you’ve built a piece of technology, as any technology provider will know, it’s hard then to go back and completely change the technology if it doesn’t meet these criteria. So, we’re at a crossroads now where the technology hopefully that will come out of today and tomorrow will start to make the difference.

I mean, I saw incredible technology the other day that helps kids with learning, and basically as they’re taught it learns what they like, what they select, and it provides them with content information based on where they’re at. The problem is I thought, wow, this could be the answer and then I have moms coming in and dads saying no, no, no, my son’s neurodiverse, my daughter’s neurodiverse they use this technology, and it still doesn’t meet their needs because it’s not built for them. So, it’s still, the algorithms are not set for them. So, this is incredible technology that already has got it wrong for this proportion of children in schools, which again we’re going to get technology that is wrong for… So, what we need, I think, it’s the technologies that are developed and led by people who are neurodiverse, by people who are being marginalized, and for the short term, we’re almost going to need to have a technology that plugs it, rather than a technology that encompasses all.

My dream is that as a candidate, you could come in and go I like to show you how I do things by building Lego. I like to show you how I do things by Minecraft. I like to show you how I do things by answering very structured questions. I like to you know, and that you could just pick and choose. But this comes at a cost and what companies don’t want to do is buy multiple technologies, and what technology companies don’t want to do is get together to say, we’ll share the cost. We’ll share the…

KK: Yes. Yes.

Theo: That’s where we need to get to. We need to get to where the world comes together and where people are caring enough and compassionate enough that they’re willing to lose some money for the greater good of humanity.

KK: You know, I agree with everything you said right then, and you mentioned Minecraft. Now, my daughter, I am sure she is neurodiverse because of her childhood experience. We chose not to get her tested, but what a wizard in building Minecraft cities. It was just mad how she can do it. She has decided not to go to university and she’s a bright girl, but in the context of school, she has always felt trapped. She has cried to me. She has felt like this is not me. She feels choked. She feels just closed in. She’s an awesome, awesome jewellery maker. She’s an artist. This is one of her pieces of jewellery she designs. She’s being featured in magazines and everything. I had to do a shameless plug for my daughter. But that’s important because what we’re seeing again is, here my daughter, it’s her final year of a level and there’s nothing in place at her private high school, her private school, for the last seven years, there is nothing in place for children, young adults who decided not to go to university. It’s like, oh, here’s a career conversation. It’s like, we don’t know what to do with you.

And what really annoyed me, and I have to say this because I’ve been reflecting on her high school, her years at school and they would say, oh, she could do so much better if she would focus. She crutches it, mom, I am studying. There’s no more I can do. This is what I can do, but yet she can hold a conversation. She’s dynamic. She’s this, she’s that. So, their misunderstanding that, oh, how can you be all that and then you can’t get 100 on a test because it’s rote, because it’s neurotypical. You designed it with no one else in mind. This is what’s going on in schools and we’ve touched on schools, and this is what’s going on in organizations, and I really wish I could keep going. I know you’ve got another meeting. I do too. We’re going to end it here, but I want to say a couple of things.

I want to say first thank you so much for being here, my brother from another mother and another father. It’s so wonderful to have a conversation with someone who truly gets me and with the late diagnosis.

I want a couple of things from you. I want to know how can people get in touch with you? Can you tell us that right now?

Theo: Yeah, they can get in contact with me via LinkedIn. That’s the easiest, simplest way. Just go on LinkedIn, Theo Smith, UK, and you’ll find me. Just type in neurodiversity I come up all over the place. I talk at organizations, I consult, advise and just inspire and hopefully…

KK: Tell us the name of your podcast and where we can find that.

Theo: Yeah. So, my podcast is Neurodiversity, Eliminating Kryptonite, Enabling Superheroes, and it’s on every podcast host, you can find it.

KK: Apple, Spotify, everything…

Theo: We are everywhere.

KK: Just on the podcast…

Theo: And the book you can find on Amazon globally. You can find them at Kogan Page, WHSmith, Waterstones, you name it, you can go on and get it.

KK: Look at that. It’s in London, New York, New Delhi. I mean, you are a force to be reckoned with. Even I am like, what! This has been absolutely brilliant. I really appreciate you just giving us here at Talking Talent your time. Very, very big thank you from me personally and I hope we meet again really, really soon and in person.

Theo: Hey, my time is being given to you. You’re inspirational. Love it and we’re going for coffee soon 100%.