“It’s not about always having the right self-care, it’s about having the opportunity to say I’m not Okay, and I need to do something about it, and having access to the resources to do that.”
Mercedes Samudio, psychotherapist, speaker, and author of “Shame Proof Parenting”
Does your team feel that the organization supports their wellbeing?
The importance of workplace wellbeing cannot be overstated. Healthy and happy employees make for a more productive workforce, and
However, telling your employees to make good choices isn’t enough. The workplace culture must meet them halfway.
Our guest for this episode is Mercedes Samudio, a psychotherapist, speaker, and author of Shame Proof Parenting who helps working families develop resilience strategies to navigate the unique challenges that can come with work-life integration.
Join us for a much-needed discussion on how you can start cultivating a workplace culture of wellbeing – one where employees feel free to advocate for the resources and time that they need to care for their mental and emotional health.
Watch the interview
Or read on for the transcript
Queing (she/her/queen): Hello, and welcome back to Voices. I’m your host today Queing Jones and I am just excited about today’s conversation with Mercedes Samudio. She is a licensed psychotherapist, a best-selling author, and she is out to change the way we see parenting. Please welcome Mercedes. Thank you for being here.
Mercedes Samudio (she/her): Thank you so much for having me.
Queing (she/her/queen): Yes. You know, this topic about mental wellness in the workplace is something that we know intellectually. We’re smart people. Intellectually we know that that is so important, yet it gets pushed to the backside. I hear it more and more, even in my own circles, people saying things like, I just got to push through this, and after I get through this… And through this might mean the busy season or through this might mean a particular project that they’re working on. And after I get through this, then I will take a trip, or I’ll get more rest, or I know I got to set some boundaries or something like that. It ends up becoming a I’ll do a later thing. Although we know how important it is, not just because mental and emotional wellness impacts our productivity and our creativity and our performance, but it can seriously just impact your body and the way you show up in your family, in your home. Why do you think it’s been so easy for smart professionals just to put it off though? I’m also curious to know why do you not? How has it become something that for you personally has been a non-negotiable?
Mercedes Samudio (she/her): That’s a good second question for sure. Practice what you preach. But I think everything that you shared is exactly why we don’t pay attention to it and that’s because our culture doesn’t pay attention to it. I don’t think until we got into the pandemic did we even have discussions around mental wellness in the workplace. Even when I think about back to my time in community mental health, we had somebody come in and teach us meditation, but then we had to go back to do clients. So, it’s like, this is nice where someone comes in and teaches us and we use it, but they’re like, okay, now you got to go to clients. Now you’ve got to meet your productivity and so I think mental health is very removed from our actual existence.
It’s not built into our work week; it’s not built into the way our society runs at all. On top of that, most of us don’t get emotional health discussions at all until it goes wrong. The first time someone says, you might have to deal with your mental and emotional health is usually when it’s going wrong, and you are sent to HR to talk about it, or you’re sent to your EAP to talk about it. And so, it’s not about this constant mental wellness, it’s about, well, when it becomes an illness or a disorder, then we will discuss it. And for many people, they’re constantly struggling with it to the point where it becomes that noticeable. It’s probably because they’ve been struggling with it for a while and have been trying to use sick time or vacation time or whatever time to get out of it or not at all.
I know several people who have all their vacation time, so much so their boss has to say hey, you have to start taking it. That’s how much vacation time you have and so when you think about all of these systemic ways that we ignore and don’t build mental wellness into our society or into our workplace, it’s no wonder that as employees, we also don’t build it into our spaces. We don’t build it into our weekends. We don’t build it into anything that we’re doing because it’s not built into our society.
Queing (she/her/queen): You know when you were talking about the accumulated vacation time I thought about how back in the day before the pandemic, and this might still be the case for some now where there was almost a sense of pride that people had by how many days, they had accumulated like look at me. Oh, I’ve got 10,000 hours of vacation time that I’ve never taken. I have been that way before. I remember looking back at the end of the year before and being like, oh, I only took two or three days and I remember this when I had to get the thing done for the car and this one the dog had something and almost being proud, but not only a sense of pride that you didn’t need to take any time off, but it’s rewarded in some ways. We will pay you for not taking time off.
Mercedes Samudio (she/her): Yes.
Queing (she/her/queen): Or it’s mentioned in performances. And depending on what area of work you’re in, especially for those people who might be in some type of service area, there’s almost a sense of guilt around taking time off. Well, what about my clients? What about my guests? What about the students? If I leave and you’re just really opening my eyes right now of how the system is. And another thing that you sparked in me when you were saying that is, are we teaching children this? Don’t we reward perfect attendance for that versus…? I know some parents who are doing this now. They are encouraging their children to take time off for them to get a break or something like that, where they get to choose the days. But I’m wondering about that. So, that leads me to this question then Mercedes. The young folks who are watching, Generation Alpha, I guess it would be, and then the young Gen Z’s who are in middle school and in high school right now, what are they seeing from their parents, especially now when work has invaded home, more so than it ever has.What might we be indirectly teaching them with this constantly busy culture?
Mercedes Samudio (she/her): That which you just said, everything we’re teaching them that. I think as a therapist, I’ve seen that a lot with my families. I primarily work with parents, and I primarily work to help them understand their parental identity. And one of the things that have been really interesting over the past couple of years is this idea that their kid sees them completely now, their family sees them completely now. I think that’s the piece of it that’s been difficult for parents and for families is because we don’t get to hide anymore. And so, when you talk about mental wellness, mental and emotional health, now the discussion isn’t just mental illness. It is mental health, mental wellness, and mental illness. It kind of becomes the spectrum where all of us experience anxiety, to which point is it becoming disordered and to a point where it’s disruptive might be pushing into mental illness, but on the mental wellness spectrum, we all experience anxiety and depression.
We all experience a little bit of psychotic features sometimes It’s like we’re all kind of on this spectrum and so when we think about what do we teach our kids? We’re actually teaching them the best thing they can learn now that we all exist on a spectrum. I don’t get to say now I’m auntie and you better listen to me. My nieces and nephews have seen me be a wreck because it’s like, yeah, it’s hard. You can’t keep it up 24/7. I wrote a book called “Shame Proof Parenting” and I did a book talk a couple of weeks ago where one of the moms said because of the past couple years, her kids have seen her depressive episode, there’s no way to hide it. Yeah. Then when she got the book as a preparation for the book club, her daughter read a page of it and said, this lady knows what you’re talking about. She’s talking about trauma and your stuff. And she said for her, that was the most eye-opening moment because she realized because she had to start talking about why she’s depressed and what happened now her and her daughter have better discussions about emotions and what can happen. So, it’s in these moments that our I think Gen Z Gen Alpha, I’d even say for me, I’m a millennial. We’re starting to learn things differently about what does it really mean to incorporate mental and emotional wellness into our life, not just into our workspace or at school, but our life. How does it feel to actually talk about trauma with my kids? Because I experienced it and that’s why I yell so much. How is it going to be to talk to our kids about the trauma they’ve sustained through this period? The constant fear and uncertainty. We’re going to have to talk about that as they emerge and get back to school and whatever they’re doing. So, I think mental wellness now is a huge staple of Gen Alpha’s life that was not a part of mine. I don’t think I ever saw my mom cry until I was almost 17 years old.
Queing (she/her/queen): And I…
Mercedes Samudio (she/her): You know.
Queing (she/her/queen): Yeah, same and I can’t think of a time actually when I’ve seen my mother cry. You don’t see that and then also you’re taught to be strong and strong looks like hiding how you feel. Conceal don’t feel. I’m so interested in what you said about parental identity so I would like to hear more about that. And when you mentioned you being a millennial and some of your experiences, it made me think about we’re in a time right now where we have multiple generations working in the workplace. We have very savvy baby boomers in the workspace. There’s Gen X there, there are millennials and sometimes when people think Gen Z, they’re thinking about kids, but we have Gen Z’s that are 25 and 26 years old. They’ve been out of university for a few years now and they’re in the workspace too. So, when you have these people, some who are raised in that grind culture, which would be like the baby boomers, you just push through, for the most part. I’m generalizing here.
Mercedes Samudio (she/her): Yeah.
Queing (she/her/queen): But you do what you got to do and then you just take it, and you keep going. You’ve got Gen X who’s pushing through but then thinking this doesn’t feel right. I’m feeling overwhelmed. You can name these things and then you’ve got millennials that are, I’m not about to push through this. I am feeling overwhelmed. I am feeling this. I need a break and then Gen Z is, I need a break, goodbye.
Mercedes Samudio (she/her): Right.
Queing (she/her/queen): This is what it is. I don’t want it. So, we’ve got that also. It would be wonderful to have leaders in the workspace be advocating for employee wellbeing with the understanding that it’s not enough to just encourage people that, oh, you should take a break. I know you mentioned that we do have leaders here now who are saying that, and that’s wonderful, but I feel like it needs to be more than that. There needs to be some halfway point and it can’t be that we’re going to do a yoga live stream altogether either. True story that has happened to me. Now, why would I, if I’m trying to get away from you people, why do I want to be on screen with you doing downward dog?
Mercedes Samudio (she/her): Thank you.
Queing (she/her/queen): This is not relaxing. It’s like telling you, let me tell you what your mental wellness should be.
Mercedes Samudio (she/her): And it’s that. It’s that and I think when we have to start talking about that because I think that’s the systemic piece of it, where it’s like, you say we need more mental wellness and then you just bring in experts. You don’t actually create a culture of mental wellness where I can say I’m going to take time off. So, if we go through the generations of that, I teach at university so I’m teaching Gen Z and Gen Alpha people who are coming in and I’m looking at how, they’ll just say, I’m not coming to class.
Queing (she/her/queen): Oh yeah. Straight up
Mercedes Samudio (she/her): Oh my God, I used to go to the doctor’s office and get a note and have to do everything and then have that copy of it and put it to the email and before email you had to actually bring a physical note in to show that you needed time off. Me and my husband were joking about it. He’s Gen X, right? My husband’s 13 years older than me and so he was like, I still need to bring in a doctor’s note when I take off work for sick time if it’s two days. So, for the first day you don’t, the second day you don’t but if you have to call the third day you need a doctor’s note for the first two days still. So, we talk about these systemic protocols for where my husband works, where I used to work, where there are all these protocols that say, you need a reason to take off sick. We have to approve whether you can take a couple of days off on vacation and that’s all predicated on whether we need you or not.
So, if we need you, no, you cannot take off sick. If we need you, we will not approve your vacation. Going back to, oh, we want you to get mental wellness. We’ll bring in a meditation specialist and you’re like, you’re controlling every aspect of my self-care. You’re telling me I get to take a vacation during the summer when that might not work for me. You can only take a vacation when we have enough staffing for you to do that or you might call in sick. People have told me recently; they’ve called in sick on COVID and been told you can’t use your sick time for that. It’s like, I have COVID, I’m literally sick. Do you know what I mean? But it’s that systemic idea of even at the direst moment, our culture is built on we need your labor, and we need your time. So, whether you’re sick or you need to take a vacation, it’s not there. So, what I would love to see is the Gen Z and the Gen Alpha change even those policies. What are those policies that say, I have to show you a doctor’s, I have to show you my own personal doctor’s note to get time off?
Queing (she/her/queen): I need to prove to you.
Mercedes Samudio (she/her): The weight of it.
Queing (she/her/queen): Exactly. That’s what I was thinking too. The stress of that which is why some people will continue to push through because of the hoops that you have to jump through to be able to take the time off, you may as well just go. For some people, that’s what they would get to. I may as well just go on and go which is easier for me to go and then you just push it through. Then on the weekend, as you said, sometimes people aren’t even resting then because that whole weight of it makes you feel like I’m not doing anything if I’m taking a nap if I’m resting, if I just want to read, or if I just want to scroll on my phone. That’s not okay. Mental wellness looks different for other people. It doesn’t have to look like…
Mercedes Samudio (she/her): I think that’s something too.
Queing (she/her/queen): Yeah, yoga and going to the spa is not it.
Mercedes Samudio (she/her): For everyone.
Queing (she/her/queen): Yeah. It’s going to look different.
Mercedes Samudio (she/her): I think that’s something to pay attention to as well. Just kind of throwing that cultural component in is that I think that’s another thing where our workplace. If we’re going to do yoga or meditation. What if that’s not what rejuvenates me? And so now I’m forced to be in meditation training or in meditation for 30 minutes and that actually did not replenish me. So, I didn’t get any time and now you’re saying, okay, now go back to work you got your meditation and you’re like, I didn’t get replenished, but you got to check off something on your to-do list that your company did self-care time. So, it’s like it’s this regurgitating cycle of no one really cares, but we’ve checked off the things. We did our DEI meeting. We did our meditation. It’s like, cool. But I’m still a black woman in a workspace where no one gives me chance to show up and rest. So, I know bigger, that’s a whole new podcast, but…
Queing (she/her/queen): Oh yeah, definitely worth it. You know, I’ve been reading a lot about how black women, people who are living with disabilities, those two groups in particular are thriving right now in this remote work era because a lot of that has been taken away. Some of the stress of being at work, not having to battle microaggressions, not having to… This sounds sad but it’s the truth. Not having to beg for accommodations because of whatever that physical disability might be, and for those who have what might be considered invisible disabilities, things that are there but you can’t quite see it. So, then they have a challenge of getting time off. I know people, I’ve worked with people who at the beginning of some of the shutdowns were not able to get accommodations that they needed even though they were vulnerable.
You remember around that time there was a class of different things that could be considered vulnerable, but your employer would still have to sign off for you to be able to do it and to witness people not be able to get time off. I remember a space where I was at a couple of people wanted to get together and say, well, what if we gave some of our days to people. Could we do that? And we couldn’t do that. So, it was a situation where you want to help people get what they need to be well physically and mentally, and then sometimes feeling like you can’t do that. So, for employers who do recognize that this is an issue within their organization, but they don’t know how to fix it. Maybe they do think that getting a meditation person or something like that is a start, is a try and it’s not like they’re being taught these things in management school, in business school. Do you know what I mean? What would you say would be some great first steps or next steps to start to establish a culture of wellness in a workplace?
Mercedes Samudio (she/her): I always think starting out with your employees and who you currently have is the best way to get that initial data and so like surveys, having meetings with people, figuring out what’s the current culture. Because you might find that people are finding their own ways to connect and then you might be able to bring that out and make that more public and so I always tell companies don’t start from scratch. We just have to make up something. Start with your employees, start with your current team, start with your current leaders. What are they needing? What’s going on? I think having that be a part of the culture where quarterly we have these types of meetings where we’re just talking about the mental wellness of our teams. We’re just talking about the emotional capabilities of what people are doing.
Actually, having a culture around how we have this ongoing because I think having one moment a quarter is fine. It helps people get the gist of it, but there are things that arise and things that come up that I think there needs to be always a system of how do we help people understand that this is there. But then I think there also needs to be a top-down space of it where we don’t, as employees always know what the budget is and what that looks like and so what I’m learning in my doctoral program right now is this idea of really having that collaborative space where the people who you want to support and change need to have a seat at the table while you’re building new supports and changes for them. So, while employees can’t make the final decisions having them at the meetings, asking them to come and share their experiences, compiling things, I think that’s the best way to start changing the culture.
Then I think some concrete ways are to actually infuse different types of mental wellness. So, if you’re going to do a webinar, maybe have a follow-up where people get to talk about how they’re using it later on. I was part of a really great group where we did a multicultural curriculum and I was the facilitator to help with this company, helping them go to that curriculum and talk about how do we incorporate some of this learning, some CRT stuff, some allyship stuff. How do we incorporate that? And so that was a great way to bring things in. I think updating vacation policies. So, how far in advance do things need to be approved and what does approval look like? Updating sick policies. How do I call out sick and do I need a doctor’s note? Can we revamp some of that? Can we decolonize some of that?
I think if I can be honest, one of the reasons why companies are scared is because they think people will misuse it, but I think that’s a microaggression too, to assume if we offer our employees options to make their own choices, they’ll misuse it. That I think is actually a microaggression for supervisors over employees and I think that’s a horrible idea to say we’ve hired the type of people that if we give them space to take care of themselves, they’ll misuse it. That’s something you need to pay attention to your hiring practices. Are you hiring people that will misuse privileges? Are you hiring people that see opportunities to misuse? Are you hiring integrous people who, when they have opportunity to take care of themselves, they’ll use it in a healthy way? So, if you look at everything I’ve said, hypothetically, it’s really systemic. It’s not just let’s do this. It’s like, what do we think about our employees? Do we think if we allow them just to say, I’m calling out sick and never give us an example or never give us a reason they’ll misuse it? What does that say about the people we’re hiring? What does that say about the culture we’re creating? So, these are these bigger issues that I think companies need to really start talking about.
Queing (she/her/queen): Yes, and the thing is they have created what they don’t want because what people will do is they will use their sick days to be able to take that time.
Mercedes Samudio (she/her): Yep.
Queing (she/her/queen): Versus those just being free days. Here at Talking Talent, yes, we have PTO, and we also have sick days, but we also have what’s called wellbeing days and you can use those however you want to. One of the things that I’ve done, and my VP encourages this, and other team leads do too. I go through the calendar and pick out random days where I’m going to take that day off. I’m going to choose this Friday in April. I think in May, maybe I’ll just do this Monday or something like that and knowing that you have that time there and that you are sincerely being encouraged to take care of yourself. No one’s checking for you. No one’s wondering what you’re doing or asking or anything like that. For people to be able to know that they should be taken care of, and we trust you to do that, however, that looks for you I think that would free people up as well. You know, I have not seen it that way that you described it, but I totally get that now. That is a microaggression. You’re saying to highly intelligent high achieving adults I don’t trust you to take care of yourself. That’s like saying if you’re out with a small child if you’re at Disney World or something, no, you’re not just going to let them loose to go use the bathroom, to find the bathroom on their own. But if you and I, and a group of friends, if we are just there and you see it, oh, hey guys, I’ll be right back. I’m going to go ahead over to the restroom. I think there is one right past that ride. No one’s going to follow me. You know what let’s just make sure she went to the bathroom.
Mercedes Samudio (she/her): Exactly.
Queing (she/her/queen): What if she got on the teacups or something?
Mercedes Samudio (she/her): Right.
Queing (she/her/queen): So that is so true. Wow.
Mercedes Samudio (she/her): Right.
Queing (she/her/queen): Needing someone to sign off on if you’re going to do what you said and so that’s why people would end up misusing it. When you…
Mercedes Samudio (she/her): Think about that. Think about that.
Queing (she/her/queen): Yeah.
Mercedes Samudio (she/her): I think about how punitive it is. When you were a kid, you had to raise your hand to go to the bathroom in school. I still think that’s so silly where it’s like, why don’t we trust? Well, because sometimes teenagers do misuse things. You let teenagers rip and run through school they probably will. But I love what you said. When you have people who are on your team, they’re highly intelligent, you leave them to do their job 40 hours a week hopefully. Hopefully. I think micromanaging is another issue. But I think when we say this person’s requesting a couple of months in advance to take a week off to go wherever that doesn’t need approval. I think that’s just let’s put it on the calendar. They’re telling us. To approve that is like you’re saying, I have to give you permission to exist, to do what you think is best for you and your family.
Even I’ve worked with people who say they’re scared to even call out sick when their family is doing things because what if they don’t have enough staff? I’m like, that’s not for you. If your family’s sick, you call out. They have to manage their staffing and to see the look of oh yeah on adult faces where it’s like, that’s how punitive it’s become for some workspaces where it’s like, I actually need to call out sick because my kid is sick, or my spouse is sick or someone who I care about is. To be scared of that because it’s not you, it’s your kid or your spouse, because your job is understaffed or because they might ding you for it or they’re going to need a doctor’s note and it’s not for you. All of these little punitive things we’ve put in the workplace I think are so silly and then we get mad when people, yeah, they use their sick time for vacation or people take sabbaticals for like months because they just have to go. I can’t do this anymore. Think about that, that we push people to the point where the only thing they can do is take a sabbatical. The only thing they can do is be out sick indefinitely and I say that as someone who worked in community mental health and saw that in the children and family services, other social workers where I’m like, this is sad.
People go on sabbaticals for months because no one approves vacation time, no one allows sick time and I know this is how it is in a lot of different organizations. I think when we’re talking about this theme of mental wellness, it does need to be incorporated even in policies, not just in these cosmetic things or our social media or all that. It needs to be embedded in our policies, in our HR. So, I think that’s something that as I listen to you talk about your job. I’m like, I love that’s already incorporated because that’s how you change the systemic stuff. You’re not just talking about things on the top. You’re saying, no, we changed the whole policy around people. You don’t need to bring a sick note. You don’t have to prove that you were sick. I could go on. Do you know what I mean?
Queing (she/her/queen): Right. And the other thing about it is that it’s really serving no one when people are burnt out or feeling overwhelmed at work because it affects your creativity and your productivity. It’s hard to think straight. I know I have experienced before reading an email, reading it again, having to walk away and read it another time or two because I see the words and I don’t know what it’s saying. I’m telling you a true story right now. I’ve experienced that where I have been so tired and overwhelmed where I just could not do it and I worked with someone that I trusted at the time and I had to say to them, I appreciate you sending this email, but I need you to tell me what you’re saying. I just need to hear you say it because I don’t understand what it is that you need me to do.
Sadly, when I asked, I said, is this something that can wait even if we could just get to this tomorrow? Well, actually no. So, then there’s that. Let us know if you need anything. Let us know that. And so, people may be hearing one thing, speak up for yourself and it’s important to set boundaries around work, especially as we could probably parlay this into talking about working parents and caregivers. They’re hearing that. They are hearing, we understand that kids are at home, and you have these responsibilities, let us know what you need at the same time. But if there’s not flexibility being given to employees with families in particular, then what is the point of saying that because what they need is flexibility. What they need is to have some boundaries around the workload. The way the workday looks can’t just be taking it from the brick-and-mortar place and then setting it in somebody’s house. It can’t be that either. Could you share about the unique challenges for working parents and caregivers and what they could be doing to advocate? And I’m saying this knowing that there are some people who may not do this. So, what are some of the more practical, simple ways that they can advocate for the need for breaks and a flexible work schedule and things like that with the demands that they have?
Mercedes Samudio (she/her): I think that’s a great question because I think it goes back to the discussion we’re currently having about systemic things. I think systemically, we do treat parents horrible. Think about parental leave how even in our own United States government, it went from like 12 weeks to four weeks to zero. Those types…
Queing (she/her/queen): I didn’t realize that. to zero?
Mercedes Samudio (she/her): …of things were still being discussed. Yeah, and I’m being facetious and exaggerating. I’m sure they eventually did something. But the fact that at the top of it we were just asking for 12 weeks. That’s three months. That means after three months you’re expecting me to jump back into the workforce after having a three-month-old child. And so, think about how we already just do that with parental leave. Think about how it was maternal leave for a long time because we ignored the fact that dads also are the birthing parent, not the birthing parent, the non-birthing parent needs to also bond with the kid.
It’s like all of these things. We notice that, especially in our American society. We don’t even systemically care about parents. Okay. So, let’s get over that. Parents have to work. So, when my kid is sick, I have to prove that I don’t have anyone else to go pick them up. I’ve had parents tell me that my job is like don’t you have a mom or grandma or a daycare? I don’t. I’m a single parent. I have to go pick my kid up. They’re sick. The school is telling me my kid is vomiting. I can’t like grandma. People have had to have these whole discussions where they have to divulge their whole family history to make sure they can get out, to get their kid. Again, while I’m exaggerating and being hyperbolic about it, I think the idea is this. The simplest thing you can do as an employer is sit with a parent and just say, tell me what it is that you need.
I need to go pick up my kid. I think I can be back tomorrow. How about this? How about you go pick them up, get this done, and then we’ll talk about a different schedule for next week. That’s between you and that employee. When other people say, what are you doing? And they get to do this. You actually, as a supervisor, get to say there are some personal things going on that as a culture, each of you has a right to come to me and share with us what’s going on so we can help you and support you as a team. We don’t have to have this general policy where everyone has to submit this and this, and I’m getting into the weeds of it because now I’m starting to fantasize about how great this could be. But I think the overarching idea becomes, can we create a culture where if I need to leave you trust that I’ll do my work.
If this week I need to work from home, you trust that I’ll do my work. If I like to come in and spend a few hours, you trust it. So, I would love to see this hybrid kind of life where if people need the office, they do have access to it. But for a lot of people during pandemic, they’ve realized just how much of their work they could do in between helping their kids and cooking dinner and living their life and they learned I could actually get my work done. And so, with that, I think that needs to be addressed and honored. Not every professional is like that, but I think we definitely need to honor the workforce and the workspaces where people can work from home if it’s best for them or people can at least discuss. This week I need to work from home because my kids are sick or today, I need to go home early and I’ll finish that up by the end of the week, going back to, can we trust adults who we’ve hired to do the work they need to do?
I think that becomes this systemic change that the pandemic has made us look at in ways we never got to look at. When people realized everything could be an email and not a meeting that changed things. When people realize I could have a whole Zoom meeting while helping my child with their homework and still be present. It’s not always healthy, but it’s like, I could actually do this and so I think we need to honor that as we move forward back-to-back to work. We need to honor that some roles and certain tasks we don’t need to be in an office, and we don’t need to be at a meeting. We can get some of this done and allow people to live their lives while also contributing to the workforce and doing what they’re supposed to be doing.
Queing (she/her/queen): I like what you said about a working parent can be in the meeting and assisting the child-like trusting the people that you brought on to work with you. There’s need to, especially we’re two years in need to be some things that are normalized.
Mercedes Samudio (she/her): Yes.
Queing (she/her/queen): I know that the topic here, I just want to say this for the listener. We understand that our overarching idea here is about mental wellness, but all of these things affect mental health wellness and mental wellbeing and that type of thing, respecting that you can do both. It could also look like maybe sometimes people need the camera off, not having to look at people all day or be present. And I’ve got to act like I’m listening. That if a person is looking down or doodling or doing something with, with their dog over here, it doesn’t mean that they’re not there and those judgments not be made about what their capacity is because they’re doing those things. But these people are at the office so maybe they’re more focused or they’re more bought in or something like that because that’s something else that’s going on. I had a meeting today where a parent had their infant on the camera. This baby is eight months old, and it was a moment where I thought now, see, this is the way I want to work, where this is normal. At first, the parent was thinking, oh, just give me one moment. I’ll do that. I said, absolutely not. Just stay right here. This is fine and plus we want to look at this baby.
Mercedes Samudio (she/her): And I love that. I love that.
Queing (she/her/queen): Yeah. Just normalizing these things. But that’s going to take training I believe. That’s going to take coaching because that’s a whole paradigm shift for you to be able to get that.
Mercedes Samudio (she/her): I agree.
Queing (she/her/queen): For you to be able to get…
Mercedes Samudio (she/her): And it’s a cultural shift because we’re not used to it. Like you said, the person you had the meeting with today was completely apologetic that their baby had to be there. So, the idea that I even have to be apologetic and push my baby off to the side or get out, everybody out. So, no one sees that I’m human. But I think one of the things that we’re noticing is that a working parent is still a parent meaning if my child is eight months old, I can’t be like, okay, go in there and deal with it. I actually have to go get them. They’re eight months old. Do you know what I mean? As a therapist, I’ve done a lot of telehealth. My whole telehealth platform has totally blown up, but I have moms who are like can I pump? I’m like sure. Can I breastfeed? Of course, you can. They didn’t go down for their nap. Can we still do our therapy session? Yes, you can. It’s like, thank you.
I had one mom where she was talking about parenting while the kid, she was talking about was like hanging over her and she’s like, see what I’m talking about? And I’m like, exactly. So, it’s like, we’re able to talk about these things because no matter what, we don’t live isolative lives and so I want to address what you said. We’re talking about mental wellness, but mental wellness is very expansive. Mental wellness isn’t I’m so Zen, I do one thing at a time. Mental wellness is I’ve learned that my best productivity is when I can have my camera off. I can be listening while I’m also supporting my child and his presentation.
So, my camera is off because I’m actually watching his Zoom presentation and I can do that. That’s mental wellness for a parent who’s a single parent and has never been able to do that in their life before. They’ve never been able to be at work and make sure that their kid has the support for their presentation. These are things that I think are really expansive. These are things that I think when we stop being so scared of, I have to control my employees. We start realizing that everyone has different circumstances and skills that allow them to be very productive at work while also helping and maintaining whatever their other responsibilities or identities are, and I think this is something we need to change our mindset about. I don’t need to micromanage my employee and if I do, that’s a discussion.
All week, you heard this was due. I don’t care how you get it. It needs to be due on Friday. Okay. That’s a discussion. I don’t start needing your doctor’s notes and excuses. I don’t actually want that. I’m going to say this. Queing, you know that it’s due on Friday at five. For the past five weeks, it hasn’t been that way. Not sure what you do during the week, but we need to talk about the productivity of it. That way it now becomes we’re still having the discussion but I’m not saying did you do on Monday? And I saw you on Tuesday looking at emails. You didn’t come in on Monday until three. That is a waste of time. That’s because that has nothing new with productivity. But if I say, I just need you to have everything due by this time, I don’t need to worry about you if I’ve hired people that I feel are quality people with integrity and the work ethic and the passion to do this work. I assume you’ll get it done by then and I think that’s a whole cultural shift that some companies have, but I don’t think it’s a societal thing.
I think it’s more of a niche company. Each company decides for themselves if they’ll do that. I think that needs to be society where every company needs to be like, hey, if you can’t do your job then it’s not because we’re micromanaging you it’s because there might need to be other things going on. And if you can’t do it, then, then maybe this isn’t the job for you. Maybe you do need to find another job where you can manage it better. But like I said, that becomes a bigger discussion. It’s not just I micromanaged you. It’s after talking about it we’ve decided that this might not be the best role, or this might need to be something we shift. I think for me, the overarching deal, when we look at mental wellness is realizing that it’s not about being perfect. It’s not about always having the right self-care. It’s about having the opportunities to say I’m not okay and I need to do something about it and having access to the resources to do that. That’s mental wellness to me.
Queing (she/her/queen): One more thing before we head out. So, for people who might be on a job search right now. They’re looking to maybe leave a place like some of the ones we described. What would you say they need to be on the lookout for? What types of questions could they be asking in interviews to kind of comb through some of the placating things that you know are going to be said that make the company seem like, oh, this is the best thing ever? Do you want to work here? How can they make sure that they’re going to be somewhere where their well-being, their mental health is going to be respected and that they’ll have the opportunity to take care of themselves in the way they need to?
Mercedes Samudio (she/her): Yeah. I think that’s a great question. I think it always starts with where have you been and where do you want to go? If you know that you are at a space where you need more peace and more space because you are a parent or your priorities have changed, pay attention to that. Oftentimes I have employees, or I have clients who say, well, I’m getting back into the workforce, but I want to do it like I used to. But things have changed. They’ve gotten married, they’ve moved, they have kids now. They have maybe more responsibilities. They have to take care of their parents and I always say, as you’re looking for new jobs, be mindful of where your energy needs to be for your responsibilities and then look at where you like to have your job. So, I’m a new parent and I just got married, my energies are probably going to be really about my family now so whatever job I have at least to allow for that, wherever I’m looking. If I’m a single person but I have to take care of my grandmother, I need to be able to get off work to take care of her in these moments. So, again, it needs to be really expansive. When you’re looking at the company itself, always start with, why do you want to be here and what do you want to gain from it? Trust me, you always want to gain something from wherever you are.
Queing (she/her/queen): Why do you want to…? Say that one more time.
Mercedes Samudio (she/her): Why do you want to be here and what do you want to gain from this experience? It’ll help with everything else. The minutia of it becomes about what you’re looking for. Here, I’ll give you a really good example. When I started my licensing process, I needed to get 3,200 hours. So, as I was looking for jobs, I was looking for jobs that would give me experience for those 32 hours and I could get those 32 hours. If I did it correctly, I should be at this job for two years, three years max. That helped me to really be thinking, where do I want to be for three years max, two years minimum, because I need to get these hours. So, for me, the idea is why do I want to be here? I need my hours. What’s my goal? Get the hours, get them signed off and move out.
So, those questions you can ask yourself because now it’s not always going to just be about the company. It’s also about what do you want? If this company isn’t able to help you get where you want to go, then it doesn’t matter how many self-care retreats they take you on. That’s not the company for you. Do you know what I mean? So, I think really paying attention to it’s like, why do I want to be here and where do I want to go? What do I want to be doing here? I think that’ll help figure out all the other minutia of it because no matter what the culture of the company is, if they can’t get you to your 3,200 hours or to your certification or to this, or even get the experience that you need so you can put that on your resume. If that’s it, then they could be the best company ever. They’re still not supporting you and they’re still not supporting your mental wellness.
Queing (she/her/queen): And with that, I would say, that’s a question that whether you’re looking for a job or you’ve been somewhere for a while when you ask yourself that question why do I want to be here and what can I gain?
Mercedes Samudio (she/her): Yeah. Yeah.
Queing (she/her/queen): Those are some things to even ask now. Thank you for that.
Mercedes Samudio (she/her): My supervisor years ago told me, even if you’re somewhere where you don’t like it, at least you’re learning what not to do. I was like, that’s a really good way to think about it. I was at an internship where I was like, I hate this place, the organization and she was like, well, at least you’re learning what not to do. So, even if you’re stuck somewhere, at least you’re learning what not to do for right now.
Queing (she/her/queen): Well, Mercedes, thank you so much for being here and having this conversation with us about mental wellness in the workplace. One of my biggest takeaways, and I think you said it this way, that mental wellness is expansive and helping to see how it impacts everything. And that is why we must be able to advocate for ourselves in the workplace, but also be somewhere where you don’t need permission to be well. So, I appreciate that, those lessons. Thank you.
Mercedes Samudio (she/her): Yeah. Thank you so much for having me.
