Being a white leader speaking about DEI

Or read on for the transcript

KK Harris: Hello everyone, thank you for joining us here at Talking Talent. I’m super excited because we have our very own CEO Mr Chris Parke joining us for a very frank conversation. It’s really all about what it’s like being the DEI expert and white and coming into the room, and what that looks like from that other perspective.

So, I’m super excited to have this conversation. Welcome Mr Chris Parke. How are you today?

Chris Parke: Thanks KK. All good thank you. Excited about this interview.

KK Harris: Yeah. I am too. I am too. I mean, when I was asked to do this, I thought this is going to be interesting. To put yourself out there, to be vulnerable, I think is very powerful. Especially in our industry. So again, thank you from all of us for taking the time out of your very busy schedule.

Chris Parke: Of course.

KK: I want to jump in there. For those that don’t know Talking Talent tell us about Talking Talent and what our mission is.

Chris: We’ve had a kind of vision – a mission – of inspiring inclusive cultures, where people in business can thrive.

So, Talking Talent is a leading ED&I practice. We come from a heritage of executive coaches and really, we work with some of the world’s leading organizations to help them either define their ED&I strategy or execute it. And for us, that then means working with leaders to help build inclusive cultures, or working with some of the key talents within those organizations, particularly diverse talent, to help them realize their full potential.

For most of our clients, it’s about how do we build a really diverse pipeline right at the top of the house. That’s what we’re trying to achieve – which is sometimes easier said than done, as we all know.

KK: Absolutely. How long has Talking Talent been doing this? Let’s take us back to the start, how did it come about? Was it all about diverse talent? Tell us a bit about that.

Chris: Yeah, of course. So, actually, I co-founded Talking Talent 16 years ago with Jo, my wife. Jo and I were working for a small coaching practice in London and one of the things that we observed was when we were working with some of the FTSE 250 organizations, there was this real difference in the experience of some of the brilliant women that we were coaching from the really talented men.

We felt that that difference was defined by how the system treated them, and what some of the policies and practices and culture were, within the organizations that we were working with, which prevented those individuals from realizing their full potential.

It became a bit of an obsession of Jo and I’s. And we observed it, we talked about it a lot – and we really felt that there wasn’t anything particularly creative going on in the market at that time, using business psychology and effective coaching to help break that down. And that’s what led to us starting Talking Talent.

KK: So, what I know because I work here: you went from women and because you saw that there was that hole in the business world – supporting women – and then you went a step further and you went into family, paternity, maternity leave. Tell us a little bit about that.

Chris: Well yeah you know what KK, it was the other way around. We started originally looking at that working parent transition, because we could see that one of the major challenges that women were facing was that transition to parenthood – and organizations just were not handling it well at all.

Women were having very mixed experiences – largely dependent on now how emotionally intelligent and locked-in their line manager was. We could see that was already one of the stages in a woman’s career that we could really influence positively – by dealing with their experience, but also up-skilling line managers, and changing some of the policies and practices around that.

So, we got a reputation as being fantastic coaches for working mothers. We translated that work into looking at all working parents, because we could see it was a gender-neutral issue.

And then we expanded into looking at women’s careers more broadly: how can we develop the next generation of female leaders.

Then it evolved into looking at the system more broadly: what is it we can do to really affect this systemic change that we want to see, so that it’s not just a flash in the pan – that it’s constant and embedded culture change. So, we started our ED&I practice and, of course, as you know three years ago, we started looking at moving into other diverse talent programs, including race and ethnicity. That’s how the practice has evolved.

KK: That sounds to me that it was just this natural progression for you to be in ED&I. It’s like when your eyes are open, you suddenly – the view expands. And that’s what it sounds like you and Jo really took stock in.

Chris: Yeah. We always set out to use psychology and coaching to have this systemic impact on our clients. That’s really what differentiated us from lots of the other providers that started coming into the marketplace.

And so to be authentic to that, we really needed to have an ED&I practice, because one of the major frustrations for us – after a few years – was that we were delivering these really detailed, deep systemic reports which were observing what was getting presented during the coaching sessions, what we saw was getting in the way of progress. And oftentimes, the HR functions really just didn’t know what to do with that, or the culture change ensuing from that was quite slow.

We started to challenge ourselves to say how can we accelerate this? We need to get into senior leadership layers, and we need to start operating more strategically, and more from the top down. So, that’s how that evolution came about – more from Jo and I’s frustration as much as anything else really.

KK: So, here we have this journey and then we’re seeing change. Now here you are, let’s deal with it, right. You’re this white guy in the ED&I space, in a coaching firm that’s all about inclusion. I really do want to know – because when you and I had one of our first conversations – we touched on this.

So, what does that feel like to go to these major corporations – because Talking Talent works with incredible brands – and so how does that feel when you’re trying to say ‘hey, we’ve got an inclusion coaching program for your diverse talent and your middle leaders, senior leaders?’ What’s the response?

I mean I hate to giggle here, but as a Black woman, as a Black American woman, I can’t help but be honest here.

I have my biases when a white guy is starting to talk to me about diversity and inclusion and equity – I’m listening. So, what’s the response? I should say: I’m listening, but I’m pushing back a little bit too, because I’m like – how do you know? How do you know what we’re going through? 

Tell me what that’s like when you’re out there saying ‘hey, come to us’.

Chris: It’s been a really interesting experience. I now talk quite openly about looking back at how challenging and difficult I found some of the earlier years of running the business, because at that point, I was going to conferences, I was asked to go and speak for client organizations, and I was quite often one of the only men in the room, if not the only man.

I remember when Jo was going through some of her maternity leaves – we started the business three months before Lottie, our eldest, was born, and then we had two other girls really quickly after that in a 3.5-year timeframe.

I was quite often fronting some of these sessions as the lead coach, coaching women through this maternity transition. I could really sense in the room this kind of surprise: okay, what’s a guy doing talking to us about how to navigate maternity? What’s a white man doing turning up and speaking on the podium about gender diversity?

It did feel quite a strain.

KK: In what way?

Chris: I recognized that that was in the room. Sometimes I think that probably said more about me than it did about the audience. But it was definitely there. I think some of that was this strong sense of feeling like an imposter, wondering whether I was going to be listened to, as the minority in the room. Which is ironic isn’t it, given the practice.

I was able to turn that around and say well look, you’re experiencing exactly what women experience or other minority groups within organizations experience as part of being a single individual within the majority, or someone who is not in the majority. That was a really useful learning experience for me, and it felt very uncomfortable.

KK: That’s what brought me to the next question. So this uncomfortable feeling, however, you still have to keep showing up. You have three children coming all around the same time; you’re still having to take these leads; you’re still having to show up.

So, it’s like a Black person going into the organization that’s predominantly white, having to show up. And there’s a certain level of burden that one carries, or you feel there’s this like, what are people thinking of me?

Go a little bit deeper in that uncomfortable feeling. How long were you carrying that uncomfortable feeling, and do you still carry it today?

Chris: I think what it meant was that when I was standing up in front of the audience, oftentimes, I would be probably holding back what I wanted to say, because I was afraid of how that might be received. So, to an extent, I wasn’t being my true, authentic self.

There were definite things I’d been observing about the ED&I space and how it’s being approached that I just didn’t agree with. And again, I think I was playing it a bit safe during that time. I think where it was really comfortable, as you know, I used to have a lot of people coming up and saying – it’s absolutely terrific that we’ve got a man who’s talking about gender diversity and is a champion, a sponsor, and an advocate.

But it was those moments when I used to have individuals who come up and say ‘why are you here? What are you doing as a speaker at a gender diversity conference?’ Where there was a slight frisson and edge.

It was that kind of pushback – that you were saying you have sometimes when you see a white man championing ED&I. Some people can’t help that, and I think understandably that’s coming from a place of frustration because they associate you as the majority. The person who is creating the system that is…

KK: The oppressor…

Chris: …evil. Maybe the oppressor.

KK: For gender as well, you have to acknowledge that. That’s how it is for women, who look at men – and that’s that push back. It’s like you stopped us from getting the same amount of money, the same opportunities, right? So, it’s unfortunate, that is what it is.

Can we move on into talking about that ED&I piece, and now what that’s like for you in the space, and what you’re trying to achieve? I guess really what I’m talking about is allyship.

So, it’s clear to become an ally to women. Now, what is that shift like? When you think of women, you could see your sister, your cousin, your mom. But when it comes to ethnic diversity, you and I are clearly different. What’s your goal here around allyship? What are you hoping, I guess is really what I’m looking for?

Chris: I think there’s a really important part, so I want to link this to the conversation we just had. I see part of my role as this kind of white middle-class guy who looks and sounds somewhat like the majority within leadership positions. There’s a role as an advocate and as a kind of role model for that. And I think, you use the word vulnerability.

I think there’s a really important piece here in leadership anyway regardless, outside of this conversation, where leaders are really powerful, I think, when they show vulnerability. When they say: ‘I don’t have all the answers to this, and we need to have a discussion about this. We’ve got some good people in the room that can work this out, but the solution isn’t going to come from me. I need your leadership here too.’

That vulnerability is really key in demonstrating to other people in the majority, look, this does feel uncomfortable and you’ve got to get comfortable with your discomfort. That’s all part of this process and that’s pretty natural.

You won’t have all the answers and that’s not what we’re expecting. But we are expecting you to move from this passive place of support, this vocal agreement and support – to something that’s a lot more active. How can you start taking the stage? How can you start actively talking about this in open forums? And how can you start behaving in different ways and picking others up on how they’re behaving, so that you’re a role model – but also stepping in when you can see language that’s used or behavior that’s inappropriate?

KK: That’s true advocacy. There’s the ally who says yes, I stand for you. But you’re really talking about that advocacy – and that’s really standing up. That’s truly standing up, and that’s definitely uncomfortable.

Chris: Yeah and I think it’s really important that we move from that progression of a passive ally – I’m supportive of this – to something that’s more advocative. Because unless you see that progression, you’re never going to get culture change. It’s just not going to happen.

KK: Is there a place to kind of recognize privilege? The term white privilege. It sounds like there’s a place inside of you that recognizes that you do have that privilege. Do you think leadership, white leaders we should say, should self-acknowledge that?

Chris: Well, I think this is about understanding context and personal circumstance. We all have our own backgrounds and experiences, and I think it’s helpful to understand that you have certain benefits from the color of your skin, your background, the education you’ve had, the geography of where you come from, or the accent you have. There are all sorts of ways that we experience that or otherwise.

It’s part of the importance of being a leader to explore that. Know thyself before you lead others, I advocate for. There’s a kind of interesting thing for me around the language that we use as ED&I professionals. And for me again, one of the things I experienced moving into this whole space was just how much technical language there is, and how emotive that language can sometimes be. Again, it’s an important point, because I think it does put people off, it does scare them away.

KK: Tell us about some of that language.

Chris: Well, for example, white privilege is a good label to explain something. But I also wonder how some of the language we use within ED&I – microaggressions is another one. It’s a good descriptor…

KK: Yes.

Chris: …but if we think about it, if we break that down you’re using microaggressions against me, Chris. How does that make me feel? It’s already putting me into a defensive space and so we just need to be really cognizant of that.

KK: Absolutely.

Chris: I’m a strong advocate for using plain language, and trying to think about the language that isn’t going to create an emotive response.

KK: So, when I think of that word microaggression – like you said, it makes you defensive already and the shame of it all is with defense.

We are literally putting up a wall. We’re putting up a wall, and then we don’t hear and we don’t see, so we can’t break through. And I think you make a very good point in the language that we’re using societally and even for some in training: ‘I don’t want to come to the session when I hear that. It doesn’t make me curious. It means I’m going to be pointed at and looked at as the bad guy when I’m a good guy. I’m not like that’.

And that’s a shame. I think there’s something important with the language too. When we can look at the language as difficult and as uncomfortable as that language is, I think it’s important, because in one way, it’s helped society right now to feel the potency of what we have gone through – people of color, people who are neurodiverse, people with disabilities. The language has had such potency on us, that these words in one way –  as much as they are hard – they are also soft comparatively speaking.

Chris: Yeah, you’re making a great point. What I don’t advocate for is pulling punches. You know this KK, we’re always having extremely difficult conversations with our clients, with the leaders within clients, like managers, and sometimes with the talent themselves.

So, I’m not advocating for that at all. You need to go to difficult places.

I think it’s about, for me, how do you create psychological safety? How do you accelerate to a place where we’re able to have really open and honest conversations about how I experience your leadership style, Chris? How do I experience your senior team? And how do I experience day-to-day coming to work and working for this organization? For this function? For this team? For you as a leader?

Until we can have those safe, honest conversations, progress is going to continue to be incredibly slow. I’m not advocating for stopping us from grasping the nettle or putting a hand in the fire. We need to do that. But we need to do it in a way that’s mindful of how people are feeling when they enter the room.

KK: Absolutely. I like that: mindful of how people are feeling when they enter the room. That’s so important, we can conversate about that all day long.

That brings me to a question, I guess we’re kind of talking about it. This is really about fear. It’s about the fear of what you’re thinking of me – or from a historical or maybe most recent in a person’s experience – but what I represent as the white guy in the room talking about D&I. There’s a fear there that’s going on, and it makes me think of the psychological safety piece.

It’s like the language creates fear and uncomfortableness. There’s so much fear going around. What are your thoughts about that? I mean, it’s been a tough couple of years – a tough year, when we’re talking about from George Floyd’s murder, Black Lives Matter – out of fear, and there was so much going on on LinkedIn that we were seeing.

Chris: So, I think the point you raised is really, really important. Even before the tragic circumstances of last year. When we went through the whole Me Too movement. I observed individuals – particularly men – who were coming along to our inclusive leadership sessions for our clients. There was an increased level of fear and a lack of safety, because increasingly they were terrified about doing or saying the wrong thing.

Now, to an extent, it was a positive thing, because it makes people more consciously aware of what’s happening within the system. It makes them question their behaviors and actions, the language they use – all these things.

But overplayed, the pendulum swings into a place where actually they avoid having conversations and they avoid moving from positive intention to action, because they’re terrified of doing and saying the wrong thing. I think that’s where it ended up, so we were having to work even harder within some of those sessions to bring it back to the center and create this safety.

I think exactly the same thing happened around race and ethnicity when the Black Lives Matter movement got this enormous momentum behind it after George Floyd. People who were already finding it challenging to discuss race and ethnicity, because they didn’t have the vocabulary, they were feeling unsteady about whether they were going to put their foot in it and say or do something wrong – they became even more withdrawn.

As professionals in our space, we took it very seriously, that the job of working even harder to create safety. How do we have a conversation around race and ethnicity?

KK: Isn’t it interesting: we had the Me Too movement, which was, on one hand, a very good thing: it stopped bad behavior. But then I was doing maybe about 30 sessions, and it was around behavior. I was talking at a major corporation, and the pushback in those conversations was ‘we can’t say anything now’. These were like middle/senior leaders, and they were very fearful of saying anything – complimenting a woman, opening a woman’s door for her. It was this type of conversation. One man said ‘I met my wife at the company I work for. What are you going to do, lock me up now for…?’ It was really interesting to get that as a woman in the room, saying ‘hey let’s look at behavior, how we can change behavior for a modern time’. 

It seems here we are, now we’re looking at diversity and the injustices around that in the corporate space, in society, but in the corporate space as we speak today. It’s very interesting because again it’s kind of going back to that conversation. It’s the uncomfortable we’re dealing with. I guess maybe it’s almost like the beginning – still the beginning stages of dealing with that discomfort.

Hopefully, what I’m thinking we’ll see is, we’ll see a smooth transition of – okay, now we’ve changed behavior. Because, as we know, in our world that we do change is incremental, it takes time. We’ve just been pushed forward very quickly in those arenas, and we’ll see the same thing in the health and wellbeing space in the coming year or two.

I wanted to ask you, are there any books that you’ve read to inform yourself that you want to share, or a video that you’ve seen, a Ted Talk, or something that really influenced your thinking around DEI?

Chris: There are so many. I really enjoyed Matthew Syed’s book ‘Rebel Ideas’. That was a good one. I enjoy all of his work. I’m going to think on that. Maybe what we can do as part of sending this out KK, is put a list together.

KK: I want to talk about what Talking Talent is doing around this space and how it’s going around the DEI coaching piece. What’s that coaching look like? Who are you coaching? Who are we coaching?

Chris: We’re trying to be a bit disruptive in the marketplace I would say, because I guess, one of the things that we’ve observed is that there’s been a lot spent within this industry – and I think it’s being written about a lot at the moment, isn’t it KK?

But billions of dollars have been spent, but actually, the needle hasn’t particularly moved. And I think it’s partly because we’re just treading water at the surface level here. We’re just skating across the surface ice and we’re not actually going below the surface.

KK: Explain that a little bit. I’m not going to let you get away with that! I want to know what that ‘treading’ is all about.

Chris: So, I think for me, what that looks like – how that has manifested – is that organizations spend a lot of time and effort making people aware of, for example, the fact we all have unconscious biases. It’s another one of those buzzwords, isn’t it.

We’ve all got our unconscious biases, but I think the challenge with that approach is that oftentimes it starts and ends there. You’ll do a one-hour virtual session on unconscious bias to make you aware of what some of your biases may be. Then, in a way, it feels like the organizations are going to start it and stop there.

That feels like we’re making people consciously aware they have got some challenging behaviors. But then they’re saying, ‘okay well now good luck with that and see what you’re going to do with this feedback’.

KK: I have to interrupt there. The thing with that little scenario you gave: you’ve put the person out there and now you’ve made them feel bad about themselves, and they very rarely take action.

Chris: Sometimes it may make the individual feel bad about themselves because they recognize that they’ve got some biases. I think at its most dangerous, it also legitimizes that. It says ‘hey, don’t worry, all of us have unconscious biases, this is kind of normal human behavior. We’re all okay here because all of us have them one way or the other’.

What it doesn’t do is say: hey, look, here’s how we need to get you to reflect on changing behaviors so that these biases do not impact your colleagues, your friends, your family, society, the organizational context that you’re in.

That is what Talking Talent is trying to change. It’s going to take people from this awareness that everything is not right, and then getting them to really think intentionally about how they want to be different, and how their behaviors and actions can make a strong difference.

KK: Do you want to share with the audience a little bit of what makes us disruptive? How we are disrupting in that space?

Chris: Well, I think there’s something around not pulling our punches, having really open and honest conversations. But again, creating psychologically safe spaces to have these dialogues. That’s so fundamental – I can’t overstate that, and it takes time.

And then I think secondarily, because we’ve got a lot of psychologists and coaches in our team, we’re experts in behavioral change. So, we’re experts at taking leaders and saying: well look, if this is the current state, this is how people are experiencing the system now, your leadership style is part of that. Now, what are some of the small things we can do that are going to add up to making a big difference here? And let’s work in on some of those behavior changes over time.

The key is getting our clients to allow access to these leaders on multiple occasions, so it’s not just a one-off. I think a big differentiator is how do you take people through this kind of behavioral change.

KK: And for those listening, are the organizations being receptive – more receptive – to this type of discussion? This type of dialogue?

Chris: We’re going full circle here a little bit. Again, I think one of my advantages is being a white man, and having other men on our team, is having this balance of who comes through the door to have these conversations. I love working with Anu. I’m really excited about working with Donna, our new Head of Inclusion here in the UK.

I think having a diverse team walking through the door – some of whom look like the majority in leadership roles, others who represent diverse individuals that we’re working with – I think is really key. Because it can help accelerate open conversations, and help get you there faster rightly or wrongly.

KK: Well, you know it is right, it is right! We can look at that, we can unpick that, and we can be very critical of having diverse people walk in the room with you. But we can also see that this organization is walking the talk and that’s important. That’s very important.

When I’m sitting in on a business call, I’m one of the Executive Coaches in our organization, and I come into the room and I show up in the room – to me that makes sense. I had an experience a week ago with a young woman, a super successful woman on Capitol Hill, I mean wow! And she’s a Black American woman like myself. I’m here in the UK, and I open my mouth and I said something she could relate to – it was talking about the great Maya Angelou – and she just threw her hand up. She was like ‘I need to work with her!’ And she did that and we arranged that, and now I’m coaching her. That was in a group setting.

It’s important to see us. It’s important to have us walk in the room because, say there’s someone who’s aspiring for that position, or in that position within an organization, a higher position leadership role, we see ourselves. The effect on others is like okay hey, there’s a black woman, she’s awesome. That’s great. Yeah, we’ve got a Black woman on our team. It just opens the excitement.

Chris: Exactly. And in the same way, when we’ve got white men who are at the front of the room alongside diverse colleagues, leading the conversation around ED&I – it means that the majority may have a different conversation with us, that may elicit a different dialogue in the room.

One of the things I’m really mindful of the moment is, one of my experiences, I think, setting up Talking Talent early on is that as part of the early, original diversity and inclusion efforts, organizations oftentimes set up employee support groups.

KK: Yes.

Chris: And the employee support groups were relating to one of the strands of diversity typically. So, you would have a working parents’ network. You would have a network that looked at race and ethnicity, and sometimes that was even split out into subgroups within Black and ethnic minority groups, and so on and so forth.

What I felt the organization was sometimes doing there is saying: ‘hey, we’ve got a problem with gender diversity. You’re the senior women and you’ve got this women’s network so look, we’d love for you to come up with ideas as to what it is that we should be doing differently, and then if you can implement those too, that would be great’.

KK: Right!

Chris: I always used to go into our clients and say, look, this is not a problem for the women’s network to own. This is a problem that’s created by the system and the leadership of that system, so let’s just keep it real here.

KK: Yeah.

Chris: You can’t expect these individuals to unravel the problem that the organization and the system has created.

KK: Absolutely.

Chris: So, similarly, one of the things I worry about is this stampede to hire new heads of ED&I. And one of the things is this real push to have Black heads of ED&I. I worry a little bit that you know there’s this mantle, we need to do something because of Black Lives Matter, and we’re going to hire a Black head of ED&I, and we’re going to give the problem to that function – without really giving them proper leadership support or resources to actually elicit any change. And I have real fear for that. We’re thinking a lot about how we support people in that ED&I role and function, to help them say, well this isn’t about me waving a magic wand.

KK: Thank you. That’s very important. That’s very, very important because that has been how I’ve been seeing things over the year. All you have to do is spend some time on LinkedIn, or you just go into the job section and they’re hiring ED&I, and it’s just going on and on and on.

It’s like – are you just doing what people have done for years, which is that tick box exercise? And then you put it all on that person? It doesn’t work. Then it’s like hey, well, we tried, we’ll just go back to what we were doing before.

That’s not fair. And that person coming in – that person of color, ethnic diversity coming in – is not going to be psychologically safe.

Chris: The fear is it kind of sets it up for failure, doesn’t it, rather than success. Which is not fair.

KK: Because you guys at Talking Talent have hired a Black woman here in the UK.

Chris: Yeah.

KK:  I think she’s an Indian Asian woman in the US.

Chris: Yeah.

KK: I’m really glad that you’ve brought that up because I think that’s important. People will see there’s a new hire here and there’s a new hire there from an ethnically diverse background.

Chris: Yeah.

KK: But you’ve given real good thought to that.

Chris: It’s interesting because, through that interview process, there was more than one candidate who we interviewed. We interviewed someone in the States who was a senior practitioner from one of the tech firms, and his words were: it’s almost not enough to be a gay white man within the ED&I space in the States anymore. It just doesn’t cut it.

And we had a number of candidates who were kind of frustrated at how many times they were approached for ED&I roles where the recruiter had openly said we’re looking for a Black woman, and I think it was such a turn-off.

KK: Absolutely. I got approached many times over the last year. I’m like well I have enough strategy experience on that level, but they’re still like, no, no, you should apply. No, no – that’s a setup.

Chris: Sadly. I wonder whether some of these roles are just going to be window dressing. I hope not.

KK: I say tick box. Absolutely. It’s such a shame, but however, Talking Talent, we’re doing our best to change a lot of things. I mean this whole space, this whole trying to help change the look of the corporate space and to see more people of color. We know women – but more people of color – into these senior-level roles. That’s a big, big ask. It’s a big challenge. It’s a challenge ahead. How committed are you?

Chris: Well, I mean, I think it’s a super exciting challenge. We’ve been talking for years because of our work around gender, at that intersection between gender and race. We’ve been talking with clients around that for a long time.

Three years ago, we started having conversations around race and ethnicity, mostly because a few of our clients had moved the agenda so far on gender – they got 45-50% of their senior management as women into those level of roles – that they were starting to, with our nudges and support, refocus around race and ethnicity, because we could see the intersection between gender and race was a real problem for them.

So, I’m all in. There’s so much more to be done, and I’m really proud of the work that we do here at Talking Talent. And it means a lot to me – and I know to my colleagues – that we’re leaving the world in a better place.

KK: It’s fantastic. Well look, I want to end it there because that was such a nice little – leaving the world a better place. And isn’t that really what coaching is all about, us leaving well-meaning individuals in a better place than they were before?

Thank you, Chris, so much.  Mr Chris Parke, CEO of Talking Talent. It’s a pleasure to have this conversation. It’s a pleasure to be one of your Executive Coach Directors here, and in forging this plan of change, this little plan of change within this big macrocosm of this glorious world we’re living in. Again, thank you so much. It’s been an absolute pleasure.

Chris: Thanks, KK.

KK: Okay, bye.

Chris: Bye.