“The younger generation coming through are definitely willing to take on new things, get the understanding out there, talk about this in the open and do something. But I think it’s stuck at the top. We need the C-suite. We need buy-in from the C-suite to acknowledge this and lead from the top and say we’re acknowledging this”
Kathryn Colas
We’re going to be looking at challenging workplace attitudes to menopause. There is still such a stigma surrounding menopause that women are unhappy about talking about it and line managers – who are quite often men – just don’t know how to deal with it.
Talking Talent Executive Coach Lucinda Quigley hosts a fascinating and informative discussion with Melanie Leavold and Kathryn Colas. Melanie is head of a client operational management team for a major assets management firm and is also head of D&I within that organisation’s women’s network. Kathryn is co-founder of the Kathryn Colas academy, which, in part, focuses on training managers to understand and support women in the workplace.
Watch the interview:
Or read on for the transcript
Lucinda Quigley (she/her): Okay. Hi everybody. I’m Lucinda Quigley Executive Coach at Talking Talent and I’m here today to facilitate a conversation as part of our Talking Talent Voices podcast series. Now, today we’re going to be looking at the really important subject of challenging workplace attitudes to menopause and to explore this subject a bit more. I’m joined by Melanie Leavold and Kathryn Colas. So, I’m going to get them to introduce themselves. Melanie, do you want to go first?
Melanie Leavold: Yes. Hello and thank you for having me today for this topic that’s very close to my heart. I work for a leading asset manager heading up a client operational management team, and I also lead the D & I part of the women’s network that we have within our organization. I’ve been in finance for about 20 years so this is probably very close to quite a few women within the asset management industry or any industry.
Lucinda Quigley (she/her): Brilliant. Thank you, and Kathryn, let’s hear from you.
Kathryn Colas: Yes. Thank you for inviting me to this today. Absolute pleasure to be here. I just love talking about menopause. I’m Kathryn Colas. Obviously, you’ve just said that, and my specialty is now training in the workplace. So, we’re talking to the workplace all the time. We’re training managers to understand and support women in the workplace because nobody’s getting the right information that there’s just so much stigma still surrounding menopause, that women are still unhappy about talking about it and line managers are mostly men and they just don’t know how to deal with it. But there are good nuggets out there. I keep hearing stories about some young line managers who are wanting to support women in their team. So, it’s really happening now. Glad to see it.
Lucinda Quigley (she/her): Brilliant. And hopefully, you can both share some of those important nuggets of information with our listeners today because we want to be able to give you listening to this, some ideas about what you can take back to your workplace to put into action, to help those experiencing the menopause. So, let’s have a little look back over the past decade because we know that change is occurring. But Kathryn, let’s start with you. What would you say that workplaces have improved in terms of their attitudes and treatment? How are they doing that? What are you seeing?
Kathryn Colas: Well, I would say that actually, it’s happening today, so much has happened even this year. We’ve got the celebrities coming out and talking about it. Things are happening in parliament. 10 years ago, and I started doing this over 10 years ago it was a desert. Nobody wanted to talk about this. Women were frightened to put their hands up and say that they were experiencing symptoms and challenges. They didn’t have anyone to talk to and they were resigning, and we now have evidence to show that that’s happening and it’s such a loss to the workplace of all that talent. So, 10 years ago it was an absolute desert, everybody was frightened of the word. I would be doing a presentation they’d say, do you have to put menopause in the title? Actually, that’s what we’re talking about. So yes, but we’ve got over ourselves. Thank goodness and it’s a completely different place today that, that we are looking at willingness from both women and men and the workplace to actually talk about this subject and not only talk about it, to start doing something about it, to support it happening in the workplace, to support their line managers, to support the women. So, it’s a good place today. It’s getting better.
Lucinda Quigley (she/her): And it’s even filtering into schools I believe. I’ve heard from a couple of friends how their teenage sons in particular have come home and had some sort of quite honest and open conversations. So, I think that’s fantastic as well isn’t it that the new generation of workers coming up will already be open to having, having those conversations.
Kathryn Colas: Yes.
Lucinda Quigley (she/her): Melanie, what are you seeing in your workplace in terms of the changes in attitude?
Melanie Leavold: I think I’m the same as Kathryn. It’s come a long way. I think there’s still some way to go. I think it’s really like mental health was about 10 years ago. It’s still a bit of a to-do subject. I’m very open about it at work. Others can be open about it but then not everyone wants to talk about it. So, I think probably people might feel they’re not supported within the workplace. I think celebrities have definitely helped. There are also celebrities that have written books as well, which are references for the struggles that they’ve been through, the tips that they’ve worked. I mean, I’ve read quite a few. But I still think there’s still a bit of a way to go with regards to making this a big topic in organizations.
Lucinda Quigley (she/her): Yeah. It feels like tip of the iceberg stuff, doesn’t it at the moment, and also that that progress needs to keep happening. We can’t just kind of stall and think that we know it all and that we’ve done it all in the workplace. And I think that’s a really important message, isn’t it that we don’t want this just to be a tick box exercise. This is about continually understanding and supporting people. When progress doesn’t happen why is that? Why do some companies not make progress? Kathryn, what do you see here?
Kathryn Colas: What I’m seeing is why they’re not making progress because I think it’s down to the leadership. If you have somebody in the leadership of the organization who perhaps is of an older generation where we just had to button up and get on with it in past times and they’re still not seeing the need to want to do something about it and that it would be that it has value to their organization to do something about it and that’s very sad. But the younger generation coming through are definitely willing to take on new things, get the understanding out there, talk about this in the open and do something. But I think it’s stuck at the top. We need the C-suite. We need buy-in from the C-suite to acknowledge this and lead from the top and say we’re acknowledging this and we’re passing it on to so and such department. You’ll be hearing from them and so it filters down through the organization.
Lucinda Quigley (she/her): Yeah, and of course with most C-suite positions still being filled by men, it’s really important, isn’t it that we enable men to be able to have these conversations because…
Kathryn Colas: Yes.
Lucinda Quigley (she/her): …although things are being done to address that balance, I think it’s important to say that, and maybe men of a generation that would just find these conversations really, really uncomfortable. So, I think that is important to point out. We know that it’s not necessarily an easy transition to make, but I think what we’re saying here is that the benefits of doing it far outweigh the risks in terms of making sure that you keep that key talent.
Kathryn Colas: And interestingly, I had a conversation with somebody the other day who said that 40% of their board are female of a certain age. Now, what would happen if they all disappeared? The whole thing collapses so something to bear in mind.
Lucinda Quigley (she/her): Absolutely. Melanie, what do you think either from your own personal experience or at work? What do you think is the greatest misconception that people have had about the menopause in the workplace?
Melanie Leavold: I think it’s more that people just may potentially say it’s only a hot flush or HRT will sort it out and it’s so much more than that. It’s so much more. I think there are about 40 symptoms from brain fog, which is awful when you’re walking into a meeting and you just can’t remember what you’re about to say to hair loss, to weight gain, to the anxiety that comes around it, the confidence. And also, it’s not all about HRT. Some people can’t take HRT, some people don’t want to take HRT. So, I think some people might think that HRT is a quick fix. It will sort it all out, but it is so much more than that and everyone is so different as well.
Lucinda Quigley (she/her): We did a podcast on this earlier on in the year with one of our partners, the GP and I think she referenced the fact that also it is a real spectrum in terms of what people experience. So, it’s something like a third of people have fairly mild symptoms, a third of people have difficult symptoms and a third of people experiencing it really, really struggle. And if you think about that as a percentage of the population it is really important that these people are supported in the workplace. What about you, Kathryn? I think the interesting thing as well is for me, the misconception is around age. So, can you just talk a little bit detail-wise about who are the people that we should be supporting in the workplace? Who is the demographic?
Kathryn Colas: Well, it’s everyone really. You know, I created a document that I call “Menopause Traffic Lights” and it goes through the different hormonal age groups, rather than the standard HMRC age groups if you like. And so, from starters in the workplace, right up to post-menopause and older people, there is something to everyone because we’ve got early menopause coming to light more and more, it’s being more and more recognized. And of course, hormones start changing around the age of 35 and women are being diagnosed with an acute estrogen deficiency. In other words, that’s menopause.
So, I think if understanding it from that perspective, acute estrogen deficiency, perhaps that throws a different light on it, because if you have a deficiency, then you need to do something to support that, to help that, to help the person that’s experiencing that. So, perhaps we need to look through a different lens to understand it better, and women are working longer the first time ever. So, women are making history in whichever way you look at it, working through menopause for probably the first time ever working full time and not knowing what to do about it, what support’s available, how they can get support, whether it’s in the workplace or outside the workplace. There’s a big hole, a black hole where nobody’s telling women what they need to know.
Lucinda Quigley (she/her): Yeah, absolutely. I think this is really important, isn’t it? Because I think when it comes to misconceptions, I think because of the lack of information that is out there, that’s what causes these misconceptions. One of the things that occurred to me while you were talking there, Kathryn, and I don’t know what your observations are around this Melanie is that often the crucial period for women sort of the perimenopause and into menopause period can often take place when they’re experiencing a lot of other life changes as well. What have you seen in the workplace?
Melanie Leavold: I guess for myself, it was a time of a loss in my family as it were, my father, but I think it’s something that can creep up on you and it can just take you by surprise. There’s no set age. I think there’s always a stigma around, you’ve got to be 50 or above or whatever to be going through it, but I think it can hit you at any stage. Anything can bring it on quickly. But I think it’s just the awareness that it can creep up on you. Before you even know it, you’re having a hot flash, and then that takes you by surprise as to why is that happening? So, I don’t know if it’s necessarily life changes. It can be as I said, but I think it’s the awareness around it can hit you at any age, I think really is the key thing.
Lucinda Quigley (she/her): Yeah. I think the point that I was sort of alluding to was the fact that it was sort of coming off what Kathryn said around the fact that women now who are experiencing this are often in very busy, demanding jobs working full time, whereas they might not have been, but also those who’ve had children might be experiencing. They might have quite young children, demanding young families. They may be at a stage where their children are going to university that sort of empty nest. So, it’s the additional I suppose, challenges that also go alongside managing, and then sometimes that’s why. I don’t know. I know anecdotally from my friends sometimes the symptoms can just get dismissed as sort of stress or not really noticed because we also know that lots of people aren’t particularly good at putting themselves first either or seeking help in these situations. So, let’s talk about what employers can do because I think this is the really important bit that we want to be able to support employers. Firstly, let’s talk about workers who are experiencing the menopause. So, Kathryn, what do you think workers, employers should do sorry to support employees who are experiencing perimenopause and menopause?
Kathryn Colas: Well, I think one of the first questions that we’re always asked is how do we start the conversation? And we say, well, we’ve already started it. You’re here with us now just as we are here today, we started talking about menopause. So, this is the start of your conversation. You go back to your teams, and you say, guess what, we’ve been talking about menopause today. I never thought in a million years I’d be listening to a subject about menopause, but it was so interesting and that stimulates the conversation. It brings everybody else into it and then you can develop that conversation. Some people set up networks within organizations so that the women can talk, but I think we need to bring men into it as well because they are such a critical part of this whole factor. Women are going through menopause.
They have partners, they may be same-sex partners. All sorts of things are going on, but managers have got wives, partners at home, and the dynamic is just shared across the age group. A woman somewhere or anyone born with a reproductive system will experience menopause and that is affecting the people around them and so that’s what we need to address and just open up the conversation. Once you start that it becomes so much easier and then you say, well, who else needs to know about this? What do they need to know? What do our managers need to know to help support our staff? How can we do that? Shall we get a team together to organize it? And so you get the ball rolling and it starts to become more organized, and then the other staff can see, oh, they’re doing something about menopause. That’s great. How can we get involved? And so, it builds the momentum and things start to happen.
Lucinda Quigley (she/her): Yeah. Fantastic. So, creating those spaces for people to talk to each other, Melanie, I think you’ve got experience of doing this. Can you tell us how that’s helped in your experience?
Melanie Leavold: Yeah, very much so. When I started going through it a few years ago, there was no support at all within the organization and I felt very much alone. And as times evolved, I just thought I’m part of the women’s network. I lead the D & I side; I’ve set up these forums. So, I’ve set up the forums. It’s very much in its infancy. I set up during COVID because I think COVID also had an impact on the anxiety side of things, and it’s been great. We have people from the women’s network and other departments trying to forward on the invite. So, there are more people attending it, which they do and it’s an open chat. It’s not recorded. It’s not used for anything. It’s just for the women to talk about their experiences, to talk about what works for them, what doesn’t work for them, to feel that they’ve got that support that they can offload and talk about what they’re going through so that they know they’re not going mad.
But I think there’s an element of we are trying to now look at train the manager. It’s quite interesting. Kathryn, what you said is train the manager and I’m part of the diversity project and they’re looking at train the manager as well. I think there’s a session in September around this because as Kathryn mentioned, a lot of the senior leadership can be male and they’re going to be going through it because they’re partners and it impacts everyone, partners, families, colleagues, everyone. So, the forums that I hold I’m hoping will get more momentum and they’ve only just started. I know in other organizations, some of them have got great momentum and with high numbers. So that’s what I’m aiming to be towards the high end. But I just think you need that network. You need to be able to talk to someone about it, just to say, is this normal what I’m going through? And it might not be because everyone’s different, but just to feel that you can talk to someone is just so much of a benefit.
Lucinda Quigley (she/her): Yeah, because I think it can be an assumption sometimes that maybe women have friendship groups, and they have networks outside of the workplace that will enable them to have these conversations. But actually, for a lot of people, that’s not true and particularly in some cultures as well. It’s going to be very difficult to have these conversations in a home or a family setting. So, it is important that the workplace does create these spaces, safe places to have these conversations. What about people who are on the other side? Kathryn, I’m wondering if you can tell us is there anything that you think workplaces can do to support people who are on the other side of menopause, who’ve gone through it?
Kathryn Colas: Yes. Again, sometimes you hear a lot about the age for menopause is 52. That just means 12 months without menstruating, but of course, it starts perimenopause but also some women don’t start to experience the perimenopause symptoms until they are postmenopausal. So again, we are all different but, in any event, as we all age we all need to keep in that health and wellbeing loop where we’re looking at type 2 diabetes, heart health, dementia, and everything to keep ourselves well to stay productively in work, which is what so many men and women want to do. We don’t necessarily want to retire at a given age. We want to carry on for as long as possible.
Lucinda Quigley (she/her): Yeah, absolutely. So, it goes back to that retaining talent piece, doesn’t it?
Kathryn Colas: Yes.
Lucinda Quigley (she/her): How can you enable people to have the careers that they want in the way that they want to? And I think confidence is a big factor there, it’s making sure that we are really supporting people’s confidence through that. Melanie, I’m wondering from your perspective, what are the barriers that potentially, and this might sound a bit controversial. We know, obviously, there’s the fact that there are a lot of male leaders in the workplace, it can be challenging. What are the barriers that maybe women put in place about having these conversations do you think? What stops them from talking about it?
Melanie Leavold: I think some people can be very open about what they’re going through, and some people just don’t feel that they can be open, and I found this on the forum. Some people won’t talk, some people will do, but I think this goes back to knowing that you’ve got the support. So, if your manager, your leader is a male that they know about and I think if you know that your manager’s gone through the training and that they’re aware of this, I think that then helps the conversation. I think women, if we treat it as a taboo subject, then that’s going to be treated as a taboo subject by a male leader. So, I think it’s a case of being open. I am open. I talk about it honestly at work, but also just having that confidence that actually if you are talking to your manager who is a male, that they might say to you, how are you feeling today? Or you shouldn’t be afraid to say, oh gosh, I can’t remember what I was about to say to you, and not feel that that’s going to have an impact on you or what your manager feels about you. So, I think if there was that train the manager in place, it’s for women to have that confidence, knowing that they can talk openly to their manager about it and not feel embarrassed about it at all.
Lucinda Quigley (she/her): I think there’s another piece for me as well isn’t there about the fact that you’re not going to have everybody who’s going to feel open, but actually if the spaces are created where they can listen to other people and still be part of that movement and that community that is still serving a purpose. So, not everyone should need to feel like they have to come and talk about their own experience, but it’s about the fact that it’s being acknowledged and recognized in the workplace because I think that’s important. We can’t expect everybody to be coming in and talking about it really openly and honestly all the time.
Melanie Leavold: Any work would get done would it, if that was the case.
Lucinda Quigley (she/her): Yeah. Well, then they are just barriers, aren’t they? Some people just aren’t ever going to feel as confident as others to do that. Now, I think this is an interesting one because I think in my experience with this, managers, in particular, can sometimes feel that they don’t do these things because they’re worried about doing it in the right way and saying the right thing. Kathryn, in your experience, how can managers be helpful rather than maybe condescending in this situation?
Kathryn Colas: I think it’s about honesty really and if you don’t have the confidence to speak to a woman to open the subject about this, it’s find out from somebody who does know how you can open that conversation and I think also stories are very powerful. So, if you’re starting a group within your organization and you are getting women and men, let’s encourage the men to tell their stories about how menopause is affecting them at home and at work because stories are very powerful. And those people that you mentioned who don’t often come forward and want to put their hand up and say something, but they like to listen to the information. Don’t forget some of those English may not be their first language and I know with one of our coaches that’s happened with her. English is not her first language, but she’s beautiful to listen to.
She’s brilliant to listen to and she casts such a different dynamic on how she describes things happening with her in her own [23:07 inaudible] and so it just brings it home to others who are in a majority exactly how different things are being experienced in different ways. It’s about being honest and having conversations. I’ve heard about young managers, a conversation I had this morning where a woman went to her much younger boss, he was 35, she’s approaching 50 and saying, she didn’t know how to have this conversation. She was so nervous, but she did speak to him about it, and he was very open and honest and said, honestly, I don’t know anything about menopause. I don’t know how to have this conversation with you. But as a result of that, they started having a conversation. So, it’s just about being open and honest and not pretending or trying to be something.
Lucinda Quigley (she/her): Yeah, absolutely. I think that open and honest conversation piece, and I always kind of just say it’s about two humans sitting down and having a conversation about something. I think sometimes the hierarchy can get in the way because I think particularly managers can feel like they have to have all the answers in these situations or have a toolkit. And actually, what I say is in that toolkit, just have your listening ears. Your listening ears and compassion and empathy and that’s a really, really good place to start. What about you, Melanie? Any sort of practical tips, do you think for managers to be able to have these conversations?
Melanie Leavold: I think you just said it. Show empathy, don’t brush it off. Someone could really be struggling with it, and I think we’re not just talking about male leaders here. You can have a female leader that might have just sailed through it, but it’s for them to be aware that actually, not everyone does sail through it. So, I think that there’s this training, which I think could be given to everyone. I think there should be more awareness in organizations around it. But I think it is definitely the listening element of it as well…
Lucinda Quigley (she/her): Yeah.
Melanie Leavold: …and flexibility. If you’re having a bad day or you’ve had a bad night for hot sweats, for whatever reason and you can’t log on at nine o’clock then realize the reason why that person can’t log on at nine o’clock and that person should feel that they can’t log on because for whatever reason they might be needing to sleep. Let’s face it. It’s not a nice thing to go through.
Lucinda Quigley (she/her): Yeah, absolutely. I always talk about how do we set people up for success with all of the different challenges that people are having. So, I think absolutely it’s about upskilling the managers to really feel confident in being able to have these conversations and also knowing what else is on offer. I think really kind of making sure that their knowledge, the education piece around what they can offer within the business is there. Is there anything specific that companies can do? I’ll ask you first, Melanie. Is there anything specific companies can do to support? We’ve talked about partners. Do you think they need an additional separate space at all or how can companies support partners of people who are going through menopause?
Melanie Leavold: I think it’s twofold really. The forum that I’m doing at the moment it’s just for women, but we will open that up to men as well because we are very aware of the fact that partners and families are going to be impacted by this. I think it’s all about education. I think supporting the partners. The diversity project is doing a session soon, I think in September for partners where partners are going to be talking about what their partners are going through, to see the other side of it. So, you’ve got to be very aware as a female that you are impacting your partner and your family life potentially. So, I think there needs to be that open forum for partners to feel that they can dial in, or they can join and can then talk about their experience if they want to, or they can listen to other people, of what they’re experiencing. So, my aim eventually will be with these forums that I’m holding, that I will do a partner one and I will have women on there as well for the women that do want to be vocal about it. But I think it’s just that education. That’s that support for everyone. It’s not just females. It’s for everyone.
Lucinda Quigley (she/her): Yeah. Yeah. Any partner who’s experiencing it. What about you, Kathryn? Is there anything particular that you think works for supporting partners?
Kathryn Colas: Yeah. You know, relationships are so important in our lives and when women start going through menopause, perimenopause, experiencing these crazy symptoms, relationships break down more than we’re admitting to. I nearly had a terrible divorce because I didn’t know I was going through menopause at the time. So, relationships are pivotal to our everyday lives on so many levels. And so yes, we do have to bear that in mind and that’s why it’s very important to bring everybody to the table to talk about this. It’s not just a women’s issue. Women are experiencing it, but it’s affecting everybody around them and that’s what we need to address, that’s what we need to have a general conversation about where we all feel comfortable and know that we have somewhere to go. If we want to make it private and personal, we can do that. If we’re happy to have an open forum, we can do that as well and those that listen will listen. So, it’s something to suit everybody, but it’s about the conversation.
Lucinda Quigley (she/her): Yeah. It’s so interesting. I think the partner’s piece. I’ve heard from a few people that I know that actually, it was their partners that spotted the changes before they did. One story in particular where someone said to me it’s my partner that sat me down and said something’s not right here. I want to be able to help you, but you’ve been a bit different recently. How can we work through this together? What an amazing experience to have that, but of course, that also doesn’t happen for everybody. So, I think, yeah, absolutely we need to acknowledge that this is something that is going to affect everyone in the workplace and create those spaces for it to be talked about. So, I think we’ve covered quite a lot, but I think it would be really useful for both of you to give maybe a sort of one key takeaway for our listeners. What’s the one thing that you would want the people listening within the workplace to take away and maybe put into action or think about? Melanie, what would be your key takeaway?
Melanie Leavold: I think from my point of view, having a forum. If there isn’t a forum in your workplace and you are confident enough to set one up, then set one up and become a menopause champion. We have mental aid first aiders become a menopause champion. There’s plenty of training out there. I think that’s key. The forum I set up as I said, it’s proven valuable to everyone. So, I think if you’ve got the confidence and you’ve got the network in the organization, then start small, which I’ve done and then aim high and ask for that invite to be forwarded on because having that support network, being able just to talk to other women about what you’re going through is just so key for everyone.
Lucinda Quigley (she/her): Yeah, and with your menopause champions, what’s their role? Can you just say a little bit about that? Because I think that’s helpful to kind of be really clear. What do they do?
Melanie Leavold: Listen, just really be there to listen as I say. Some people don’t want to talk in a big forum but be there as someone to listen and I have people reach out to me separately as a sounding board, just to say is this normal? What are you going through? And it is just really just to listen so that they feel that they’re not going through it on their own.
Lucinda Quigley (she/her): Fantastic. Thank you. And Kathryn, let’s ask you. What’s your takeaway for our listeners?
Kathryn Colas: Well, everything that Melanie said, of course, but I would also say on a personal level awareness of your own health, awareness of how your own body works, and the changes that you can see happening that you may not have recognized previously, or you can’t put a name to it. So many things you can’t give a name to, but just awareness of it. Watch your health, look at your lifestyle. Our bodies are changing. Women’s bodies are changing and what we’ve done in the past often doesn’t work anymore. We need to look at our nutrition and wellbeing on so many other levels, but that’s going to work towards a better quality of life and a longer life. So, we need health awareness, and if something’s changed and you aren’t quite sure what it is, talk to somebody about it, not necessarily your GP, but if you are in a forum or any kind chat group where you feel comfortable talking about different things.
Say well I’m experiencing this. Has it got anything to do with perimenopause? Is it something completely different? In any event, I think if women are worried about anything,in particular, they should go to their doctor, but on so many other different levels, we can just have that conversation and say, oh, I’m experiencing this. What do you think? Is anybody else experiencing it? What did you do about it? How did you feel? When I first started doing this about menopause, it was because I realized that nobody was telling women what they need to know and they’re still not. There’s not enough information out there for women. When you think, this is happening to 50% of the population, and yet we still don’t know the basics. What’s happening? Why is that happening? So, it’s self-awareness, I think is paramount.
Lucinda Quigley (she/her): Fantastic. Yeah. I think that’s a really important message and really kind of brings in the well-being side of this, doesn’t it? And how companies can really lean into that. This isn’t just solely about the menopause. This is about how women’s health in general and how that all comes together to ensure that we’re encouraging all of our workforces to be healthy so they can have not just a career, but also the life that they want as well. Thank you so much, both of you for joining me today. It’s been a really interesting and also very important conversation. So, thank you very much, and thank you for listening.
Melanie Leavold: Thank you.
