Creating psychological safety with Dr Susan Kahn

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KK Harris: Hello and thank you for joining us for this next episode of Voices. I’m KK Harris and today I’m very pleased to have in the conversation, Dr. Susan Kahn. She is an author, an academic, a coaching psychologist with the British Psychological Society and she’s a sought-after speaker and I’m really, really pleased to be here with you. I see her as a colleague and a friend. It’s wonderful to have another conversation with you today. How are you, Dr. Kahn?

Dr. Susan Kahn: KK, I’m well, and it’s always a pleasure to see you. So lovely to be able to have a chance to discuss something that interests us both very much.

KK Harris: Absolutely, and that interest you will be talking about today is psychological safety. So for those listening, if you’ve really been trying to figure this out and you really want to understand what this is about, because you’re hearing it out in the professional world, then you have landed on the right conversation. So let’s just jump in on that, which is that first question I want to ask you, which is what does it actually mean to have a psychologically safe work culture?

Dr. Susan Kahn: It means that when you’re at work, you feel free to speak. You feel free to raise concerns. You feel free no matter what your status in the organization, whatever your position that you will be listened to, that somebody is prepared to hear you without humiliating you or criticizing you, or shutting you down. So it’s really about creating space where we can all be heard.

KK Harris: You know I think we’re seeing this in articles on LinkedIn, et cetera, because there seems to be an honesty in saying, hey, I’ve not felt psychologically safe. What do you think this is? Why has this come about in your opinion?

Dr. Susan Kahn: Well, when Amy Edmondson, who is the founder of the term psychological safety, first did her investigations into this notion that it was important that in this era of the knowledge economy, that people should be able to speak if they didn’t agree, or they had suggestions, or they had other kinds of offerings. And her research found that even in industries where one would imagine a great deal of confidence, a great deal of assurance, in tech companies, in medicine, in aviation, people were still fearful to speak up because those in authority didn’t necessarily respond in a positive way. So I think there is a shift now where people are beginning to recognize that their voices need to be heard and can be heard. And even though it is something that’s very much spoken about, it’s not necessarily something that’s experienced by everyone. There’s a lot of work to do to create a psychologically safe environment.

KK Harris: It is true. And I find that in organizations that I’ve worked with in the past, it’s that thing: we want to our authentic selves, we want to bring our authentic selves to work, we want to feel safe, where are the boundaries, and where are the boundaries with this? It seems to me it’s like, I just want to be psychologically safe and say anything that I want to say. How do we create the boundaries? How can an organization create these psychologically safe boundaries would you say?

Dr. Susan Kahn: It touches something very interesting, and obviously we bring all our vulnerabilities to work, all our whole selves into the workplace and yet work is not necessarily the place to reveal every detail of our private lives, every part of ourselves. However, if we have something to contribute, that’s going to add to work, then we should be able to speak up. And that might well come from personal areas of our life. Perhaps we volunteer, perhaps we’ve got previous educational experience, or previous work experience that will add to the conversation, and we should feel free to contribute in that manner.

KK Harris: Right. I think that you landed on this great little talking point about that contribution. It’s about what are you bringing, contributing to this conversation that, like you said, it adds value to this conversation. Not that, oh, I’m really sick and tired of this conversation. That adds no value, but it’s, what are you going to contribute? Rightly wrongly, you say it the wrong way. You don’t sound like you come from Oxbridge University or something that you feel free to say.

Dr. Susan Kahn: Yeah.

KK Harris: I know that I can speak from someone who’s just completed their Master’s or submitted the research project that I struggled on the Masters when it came to being American, when it came to being African American. I’ve been reflecting on, as we’re talking about psychologically safe, I’ve been reflecting on what was it? Why didn’t I feel comfortable? Sometimes I felt like I couldn’t be myself. Even though I was fortunate, I was in the room specifically, when I was doing your module, the coaching qualification, I felt very safe there. Then you come into another room, and you don’t feel safe there. I guess what I’m getting at is what changes? What is being unsaid that we’re picking up? We can’t label it, we can’t say it, but we just don’t feel it. What is that, that we’re sensing?

Dr. Susan Kahn: It’s so complex, isn’t it KK? Because very often the words are said: your contributions are welcome, we want to hear your voice, we are an organization that welcomes opinions from everybody. So, those kinds of blanket statements are said, and yet you can find yourself in a room where it’s only the HiPPO idea, the highest-paid person’s opinion that counts. It’s only after they’ve spoken anyone else feels they have to speak.

So, I think it does come from a leader establishing a culture in which you can speak up. It does take an effort to perhaps identify that maybe in the past, you haven’t, as a leader being as welcoming as you might’ve been or you might perhaps have to say, I know I said in the past, your opinions were welcome, but my behavior might not have reflected that. So, I’m learning too. Please do share your feelings and it’s terribly important. You mentioned your role as an American, an African American woman in a British college doing a master’s program.

KK Harris: Right.

Dr. Susan Kahn: I know from personal experience with you, that lens, which you bring to a conversation is hugely enriching. And if you were not able to speak, we lived through the George Floyd tragedy together. If your voice hadn’t been there at that time, we’d have all been much depleted because of that. So, it is very important that we allow people to speak up, not just the people who are in authority or who have the money most of the time.

KK Harris: Right. I think you touched on something which made me think about going to that leadership piece. It’s who was in the room? Who’s leading that space? Who has the most clout? Who is this, and who is that? Who was the more this? And it can definitely affect the environment. It can affect how you show up, how you feel. And then I want to talk about that other side of the psychologically safe. You’ve been told, we’re changing the organization. We are creating this space. We’re contracting around conversations, but people are still afraid. To me, it’s that is it? I’m not sure I can believe this, even though the leadership is saying, hey. Does it take time?

Dr. Susan Kahn: I think it does take time and it’s got to be authentic in the same way that your contributions need to be authentic. The voice that says I’m listening, I want to hear what you have to say. It doesn’t mean you’re going to act on everything that everybody contributes, but you do need to show that you are genuine in expressing and wanting to hear what others have to say. So, creating that, I think does take time and particularly if you’re shifting from a culture that’s been a bit hierarchical in the past, and it’s particularly important.

KK Harris: It’s so true. It’s the shift, isn’t it, and allowing the time. I looked here to my left, actually, and the word on this Margaret Atwood book that was showing up was grace.

Dr. Susan Kahn: Yes.

KK Harris: I just thought it’s allowing us, all of us, the grace to transition. It’s patience, isn’t it when it comes to helping to transform a culture?

Dr. Susan Kahn: And of course, you mention patience, you mention grace, and the fact is things sometimes are a little time-consuming. When you do listen to other voices, you can’t just put in a quick fix. But the ideal thing in bringing these voices together is that you’ll come up with a better solution with something which really listens to the diverse voices in your organization of age, of neurodiversity, of ethnicity, all the contributions that need to be heard, that can actually ultimately make a much better solution.

KK Harris: Right. I’m thinking about race, ethnicity, and organizations striving to not just be diverse but to be inclusive. So, race and ethnicity join the group, the dominant groups, the homogenized group. So, diversity comes in the room, and statements that are made when you’re trying to bridge people together is: I’m afraid I’m going to say the wrong thing. I started recently pushing back on that statement because I thought it was a statement that you’re not even paying attention to the words you’re using because afraid means to fear something, right, it’s dangerous. So, for me, as a black woman, if I hear I’m afraid I’m going to say the wrong thing. I think well, what could you say that would really offend me and should you think about that? What do you think about that?

Dr. Susan Kahn: Well, I mean, I think it’s a very powerful point. I think in a generous way, one could say that in front of people, for example, somebody who’s in a senior position, one might feel intimidated to speak up because you’re worried about being made to look ignorant in some way. And I think there’s something around race and difference which is around impression management. For example, you know, we want to be seen to be woke. We want to be seen to have the right language. We want to be using the right pronouns. We want to be referring to people in the correct way. And that is largely because we do have a desire to be seen to be good, worthwhile, informed, interested people. But I think what you referred to in terms of, I’m afraid to say the wrong thing, is also a little bit lazy, isn’t it? Let’s think about it. So, it’s complex, but we shouldn’t be afraid, but we do need to think perhaps before we express ourselves.

KK Harris: Right. I am so glad you said it. It is lazy. It is lazy because when we’re living in the 21st century and we’ve got Google to hand, we can look at, okay, what can microaggression be? What are the correct pronouns? What is a little bit of a historical context of that individual or that group or what have you? And it’s just about informing ourselves. It’s the things that you were saying. You used the word woke; do you know what I mean? That’s not your generation per se. You’re in this generation that’s using that terminology, right. I’m with you here, it was not my generation. So it’s about being prepared to not be lazy and to do the work just, just a little bit. I think we can take it upon ourselves as individuals, and especially if an organization is going through a restructure around diversity, equity and inclusion, and I think we need to take our time to learn because it is easy to say, oh, these new changes are going on and now I’m going to go home. It’s five o’clock and that’s it. It’s easy to do that.

Dr. Susan Kahn: I guess at the heart of psychological safety is that ability to listen, and ability to have people express themselves and for us to learn from someone who is a little different to ourselves, either in their role or in their history or their status or their gender or their age. But we need to learn from others and therefore to listen carefully and to take turns in speaking, not to bombard everybody with our views.

KK Harris: Right, right. I’ve got to tell you one of my first memories with you in a classroom setting was, you come in the room and you’re like, hey, I’m, I’m a coach. I’m saying this about myself. I’m like, I’m a coach. I’ve been doing this for five years or so at that point. You come in there and you think, okay, you’re good. You’re good at what you do. So, I’m just taking this because it’s a high-level qualification. But one of the first things you did when I experienced your session. You said, KK, listen, stop. I never forgot that and every time before I spoke, I would think, stop, listen, don’t interrupt and it was so powerful. It reminded me of my role as a coach and then I want to say this. It’s in that listening that you hear what’s going on within yourself and you’re hearing what’s coming to you from your client as well.

Dr. Susan Kahn: You are a super listener. I will say you’re a super listener and I know that you attend incredibly attentively to your clients and to those around you. But you touch on something when you say what’s in yourself that I did want to refer to as you were talking earlier. There are, of course, structural things that go on in terms of doing our investigations, doing our research, making sure we’re up to date. We do have a responsibility to stay in touch with language changes, with different kinds of expressions of organization, things that are going on. But it is worth acknowledging that what’s going on below the surface also comes to the surface now and again. So our unconscious is also with us. So if, for example, we have in your case, historical racial issues, you bring those with you into a meeting and I bring my own into whichever setting I’m in. So, there’s the structural things we can put in place. For example, leaders saying this is an organization where your voice is heard and listening and acting on that – not necessarily being nice all the time, there could well be conflict, there could well be disruption, there could well be disagreement. That’s still a psychologically safe place. Indeed, you want to create an environment where they can be a bit of friction and people are not afraid to go with it. But we also do bring with us so many of our defense mechanisms, so many of our historical issues, and that can mean that it’s a little bit complicated at times.

KK Harris: Oh, I’m so glad you said it. Doing my research project, it was on autoethnography as the model. But it was so important for me to learn what was going on below the surface inside of me that I was feeling, so I knew what was mine and what was theirs. It was a very powerful exploration to do that. So, that makes me, I guess, come back to that word of grace again. I think I’m really learning that. I’m learning even in this organization that I’m with that there’s a certain level of organizational change that is wonderful and welcome so it’s a good place to be. But I think there’s that point of, again, coming back to grace. Coming back to grace.

I love that scripture. I think it’s in the Holy Bible, Jesus is looking up to God and he says, “Forgive them for they know not what they do.” He’s like, I’m not going to blame them. It’s so powerful that story and I keep coming back to that. I think when you come from a history, a generational history of what is termed as racial trauma, we bring with us so much pain or it could be any group that has gone through trauma generationally. We bring through so much of that, that I think sometimes as much as we hurt sometimes, we want to want to hurt back.

Dr. Susan Kahn: You’re describing something which connects to a very potent and present issue that’s, I think is being discussed at the moment, which connects to both what you talk about in terms of the patience to listen to ourselves, as well as the patience and grace to listen to others. But also, what goes on when something emerges, for example, like whistleblowing. There was a dispatcher’s program just recently about the NHS and the way that whistleblowers within the NHS are treated. Professor Mark Stein has done a lot of work on the role of whistleblowers in the organization. And ostensibly, an organization with a whistleblower needs to work on their psychological safety. Clearly, people haven’t been able to speak up and so it’s got to a crisis point where somebody feels they need to speak to save a very difficult situation. What often happens to whistleblowers is rather than being applauded for naming the bad thing that’s going on, they’re hated and attacked.

KK Harris: Yeah.

Dr. Susan Kahn: That, I think connects to what you’re referring to which is our unconscious desire to almost destroy the person that’s saying our organization is not good. Our organization is not behaving in a way that we can be proud and because there’s such attachment of often to organizations, that person who names what’s going wrong can be really vilified and excluded and punished for doing what we’re really encouraging people to do in a psychologically safe organization. That is to pick it up.

KK Harris: Right. Isn’t that interesting, the irony. I mean, we could go on about that. I want to ask some more questions. Let’s see. So, someone said that we’re all responsible here. We are all culture co-creators. So, at an individual level, what are some of the things we can do to increase our own levels of psychological safety in teams, and how do we set up the conditions for others to do the same?

Dr. Susan Kahn: Psychological safety is about everyone in an organization. It’s not just a select few who are allowed to speak, it’s everyone. But there is a tone and a pressure on those who are leading the organization to make sure that it’s known that contributions are welcome, that voices need to be heard. And I think as we touched on before, to also mention that sometimes change is required, that we may be used to be an organization that said these things, but we didn’t necessarily do them. We now want to be an organization that walks the talk.

This is some research done in Google over a four-year period with some really technologically savvy individuals who one would imagine would be very comfortable about speaking up, but not necessarily so. It was the teams that felt psychologically safe that were the most successful. So, we can’t necessarily make assumptions about professions, like the medical profession or the aviation field, or other tech fields, that they will be people who have the confidence and the intelligence to identify things. It is very much about creating an environment, and that’s where both the tone is set at the top, but then everyone must join in.

KK Harris: Right. I like that. The tone being set at the top is going to set the condition for people throughout the organization to feel psychologically safe.

Dr. Susan Kahn: Yes. Yes.

KK Harris: I want to go and answer another question that was put for you today, which is can you share some examples of organizations, to remain nameless, organizations who have created and embedded psychological safety and the subsequent benefits they have enjoyed? We spoke a little bit about that but if you could give us that, that’d be great.

Dr. Susan Kahn: You may be familiar with Sheryl Sandberg’s poster voice almost that says, what would you do if you weren’t afraid? And this is something that she had posted in reception at Facebook, something which was basically a message to the employees at Facebook that it’s okay to have a go and to fail. Learn from it and then go forward. I think that, although Facebook has certainly got a lot to learn in many ways, it does create a culture where failure is tolerated. Lots of startups and entrepreneurs are not deemed to be successful unless they’ve got a number of failures behind them, and they have an environment of literally celebrating the failure and learning from it.

We’ve mentioned the NHS, we’ve mentioned aviation where a lot of this research took place. Examples of co-pilots who saw very dangerous activity going on with the pilot, but felt unable to speak out because they were the co-pilot and not the pilot, with tragic consequences. Medical teams where nursing staff perhaps identified behavior and medical prescriptions that weren’t necessarily in the patient’s best interests, but were they in an environment where they could speak up and have an approach? We’ve also spoken in the past about Atul Gawande, a medic who has a fantastic approach to surgery whereby there’s a checklist where you and your member in the surgical team is encouraged to speak up if something’s forgotten. So, there are some examples of both organizations where it’s working and needs to shift.

KK Harris: Wow, fantastic! I know we have another question before we call it and I want to talk about your book and talk about what you’re doing coming up. One of the questions is if there were three things, we could all start doing today that will foster psychological safety in the workplace, what would they be? Three things.

Dr. Susan Kahn: This is something which you’ll have heard me say before, and indeed we’ve touched on it a bit, but to listen, to listen to what people are saying. Listening is such an undervalued communication skill. It’s an active means of actually connecting with people to show that you’ve heard what they’ve said. So, for leaders to listen and to perhaps have meetings where they get along and they say, I’m only here to listen, I’m not here to talk. So to create some way of making sure things are heard. I think to have courage, we’ve spoken about the idea that people want to manage their impressions. They want to be seen to be good, but sometimes courage, and the word courage comes from the root cor (heart), we need to have the feeling that we want to change things. We need to bring this sense of authenticity to an environment. So, I think having the courage to speak up and say, look, I might not have done it well in the past, but I’m trying, and I want to change.

KK Harris: Right. Right.

Dr. Susan Kahn: I guess the third thing is if you really want to create an environment where there’s psychological safety when things go wrong, try and learn from it rather than punish the individuals. Find out what you could do differently next. Create an environment where it’s not the end of the world for something to go wrong. What could you gain and learn from that?

KK Harris: Yeah.

Dr. Susan Kahn: And I’m sure there are many more things, There are a few thoughts. Yeah.

KK Harris: Of course. Yeah. I was thinking with what you were saying, it’s letting the person know that, hey, these things go wrong, mistakes have been made or what have you, but you’re not going to then label them. There’s that level of empathy that needs to be there with leaders. I’m very hopeful with the things that are going on in terms of changes organizations are wanting to make, I really feel that there are a lot of good people in a lot of these organizations that are really pushing hard to help their organization become psychologically safe. I know we are, and I know Birkbeck University is.

Dr. Susan Kahn: Yes. Trying, yes.

KK Harris: Exactly. It’s the start. It’s the start.

Dr. Susan Kahn: Sorry KK, I think I interrupted you, which just shows that listening is always something you need to work on. It doesn’t matter where you are. But what I was excited to say was to make the connection between your question about who it involved in terms of the organization. We talked about leaders, we talked about everybody speaking out, but one of the interesting things about change is that people coming to work no longer will tolerate being treated in the way that they have been treated in the past. They want their voices heard. There is shouting out and pointing out to behavior that’s inappropriate, to missed voices, to opportunity and that is a wonderfully exciting part of the way we work now.

KK Harris: Yes, yes, it is. We didn’t get to grow really go deep into that, but it’s the things that I would read on Glassdoor when I would be speaking to my career coaching clients, is all you got to do is look at Glassdoor to see what people are saying anonymously about the places that they work and then you’ll have a real clear indication of what the culture is like or somewhat of that. It is so clear that the millennials, Gen Zers, they have a higher expectation of our humanity, and I think that that is a beautiful thing. That is a beautiful thing and even though this is a very challenging time for a lot of us as individuals and within organizations, it is also a time that we should say, you know what, we are getting so much better. We’re getting so much better than we have been because where we were, we’re looking back, and the younger generation is telling us we don’t want anything to do with that. I think that’s a beautiful thing.

And I hope the younger generation, years from now they’re looked at, the Gen Zers, I really say the Gen Zers because they really mean it, it’s like they look at their older siblings, the millennials, and they’re just like, we’re going to go even deeper on it. I really hope that we look back at society and say, wow, what an incredible, incredible two generations and being older and living this time, I think is a great thing.

I want to move on to one of my favorite books that you have written, and I think it’s so important today with everything that we’re going through as a society. It’s called “Bounce Back: How to Fail Fast and be Resilient at Work” by Dr. Susan Kahn. If you could just think of this book, you wrote and give me one message that you’d love people to know that they’re going to get in this book. What would that be?

Dr. Susan Kahn: Well, many of the things that we’ve spoken about are included in there in terms of failure, in terms of communication, in terms of dealing with conflict. But the message that I think links most closely to our subject today is around containment, around the idea that our workplaces need to be areas, containers that allow the people who work with us to feel safe enough, to speak up, to feel that it’s possible to make a mistake and not to be obliterated. That it’s possible to be a little bit risky, to be a bit courageous, to call out across the hierarchy your various thoughts, and to be safe enough to be celebrated as well. So, I think the idea of containment, and Brené Brown talks very nicely about container building, and I know we’re both fans of her. But I think a lot of the themes about building your resilience are linked to building your own sense of safety within, which organizations are trying to perpetuate with a culture of psychological safety.

KK Harris: Oh, that’s wonderful. I have something else that you’re up to. So, you’ve written more than one book. This is one of my faves. I like ‘Death and the City’.

Dr. Susan Kahn: That’s right. Yeah.

KK Harris: I like that one too you. You have such a way with words, and it just feels like you’re right in the living room when I’m reading it. So, I’m encouraging people to go and get that. Something that’s coming up. I believe it’s in November. I’m not going to say the date because I’d probably get the date wrong, but it is you are doing a Masterclass with The Guardian, one of the Guardian Masterclasses. Can you tell us about that?

Dr. Susan Kahn: Yes, that is just a nice opportunity to take some time to think about some of the things we’ve been exploring today, but also about your own relationship to resilience. This pandemic and our return to work and all the changes that have been thrust upon us. The loss, the disruption, the re-evaluation of our relationship to work, working with home. These are all things that we’re going to talk about in a very practical way with some tools and working together. It’s on the 15th of November. If there are places left, you’re very welcome.

KK Harris: Fantastic. So, the 15th of November. What time is it?

Dr. Susan Kahn: It’s 6:30 to 9:00; 6:30 to 9:00.

KK Harris: I love your lectures, so I know it’s going to be good. So, we’ve got to get on over to The Guardian and try to get our tickets through The Guardian. Is that how I do that.

Dr. Susan Kahn: Yeah. Just book on through Guardian Masterclass.

KK Harris: Fantastic. Well, I’m hoping I’ll get myself a ticket. That would be great. I want you to tell us where we can find you. Now I know you’re on LinkedIn, I just know you, so is it Dr. Susan Khan on LinkedIn?

Dr. Susan Kahn: Yes. That’s it. Dr. Susan Kahn at LinkedIn and please feel free also to follow me on Instagram, @drsusankahn, and to reach out. But if you’re listening this far, I’d just like to say congratulations for taking some time to think about this really important subject. We’re all learning together and having moments like this, where we just step out of our normal day-to-day life and just pause and think for a moment about change, about improvement is really valuable and. KK, you’re wonderful at facilitating these moments so thank you.

KK Harris: Thank you. It’s such a pleasure as always to speak with you and to have you on a podcast or something like this. So, thank you from us at Talking Talent. My name is KK Harris. It’s been an absolute pleasure. See you soon.