The post-COVID dad with DaddiLife’s Han-Son Lee

Or read on for the transcript

Rob Bravo: Hi, I’m Rob Bravo, the host of today’s podcast episode. I’m a Coaching Director and Head of Wellbeing at Talking Talent. And today we’ll be talking about the subject of the post-COVID dad. That’s our area for conversation and I’m delighted to introduce a long-time collaborator Han-Son Lee, the founder of DaddiLife, the parenting website for dads. Always incredibly joined up with the mission that DaddiLife has, that of creating that place where dads can learn, grow, and celebrate the life that is dad. So, we’re in good hands today.

Han-Son, welcome. It’s really lovely to be speaking with you again on this topic and really interested to hear your views and your experiences over the last 18 months or so. Maybe let’s just dive straight in. I’m curious again, as a coach of working parents. We’re in conversation regularly with people, we’ve seen a real shift, a real change, and some real impacts over the last 18 months. But for you, from what you’ve seen, what’s the impact the pandemic has shown on the working fathers that you’re in conversation with?

Han-Son Lee: Yeah, it’s a great question, and again, thanks so much for having me on. I think it’s such an important subject to cover and the thing that we’ve seen throughout our time of COVID, and that’s really throughout the community, the DaddiLife communities. What COVID has done, I think overall has accelerated and widened a change that started pre-pandemic, in that more and more dads were taking part in what we call a generational shift when it comes to parenting. Being far more involved, far more active right across their children’s lives, and that having an immense impact really on work, and the sort of work/life balance, and the work priority and schedule that was occurring for dads.

What we’ve seen as the pandemic has forced the degree of change, not just in terms of dads and more dads working from home. I think it’s accelerated that sense of real equality at home in terms of modern-day dads’ schedules with their partners and raising children, but also even that too, shall we say, didn’t necessarily fit that kind of a DaddiLife attitudinal segment before definitely has now because I think what it’s done is it’s forced a much wider group of people to really reappraise what they do at home and what they do at work. And in a way, home being work has, I think, forced people to reflect a lot on what they did pre-pandemic, what they’ve been able to do during the pandemic, and therefore what they’re going to do post-pandemic.

And it’s brought an awful lot of change for an awful lot of people, to the point where we had a particularly interesting reflection last week with a new group who we’re helping through mentoring. They had reflected actually for a new group of fathers, particularly ones with children up to the age of potentially nearly two, haven’t really known anything but working from home with their new children. And so actually even coming back to work, whether that’s hybrid or whether that’s any form of new-age policy, there’s an awful lot of hesitation and dare I say even resistance to some of that change. I think as workplaces and as leaders and workplaces, we need to be very cognizant of actually what bringing people back really means for people that have taken on an awful lot, and are probably very different people and have had a very fixed pattern of who they are for the best part of two years.

Rob: Yeah. It’s fascinating that the whole identity shift that happens when we become a parent, whether it’s the first time or the fifth time, when all you’ve known is working from home and being the dad in the home as opposed to the dad that goes to work and then comes home. It’s huge, absolutely massive and it’s fast-forwarded, your views of org culture by about 10 years in the space of the last 18 months.

Han-Son: Yeah. Well, I think it’s fast-forwarded the personal human experience, your family’s going through it. Whether it’s fast-forwarded working culture, I think is probably a very different topic of conversation, because I’m not sure it has necessarily. I think we’ve seen with certain industries and certain workplaces where it’s been a very clear signal of just trying to go back to the “way things were” and that being not necessarily possible. Other organizations have perhaps been leaning in a bit more on actually what their people have been talking and saying, and actually just listening to them.

I think there probably is no one organization that has it perfect, but I think we’re sort of fluctuating between ones who, for various reasons, are trying to go back to the way things were and probably for good reason. I mean, there are certain industries where that face-to-face contact actually is vital for a role. There are probably some others who have been surprised by some of the outputs and productivity and various people benefits that actually worked. So, I think culture is actually in a really good state of flux at the moment, I think because, and I’m sure you’ve found this as well, it’ll be interesting to see if you have seen this, about certain organizations that are at a really key juncture of actually where and how do they move forward with particular populations of their people.

Rob: Yeah. I mean, certainly, I would say the more progressive organizations are a lot more open to what will work for you, the employee, in terms of making the transition. And we’re not using the words new normal anymore, we’re more into the next normal, and that’s being defined. There is absolutely a bit of a fear around the pendulum swinging too far back the other way. And those working parents, particularly those who have seen some massive benefit. There was some research done by The Fatherhood Institute, I’m not sure if you saw it…

Han-Son: Yes, I have. Yes.

Rob: …that the records are about 60/65% of partnered fathers reported better father/child relationships following lockdown and that was rising to about 73% among those who were full-time at home, which is a massive figure.

Han-Son: A huge figure and actually by pure coincidence actually mirrors a lot of the research we did just pre-pandemic, the millennial dad at work. We’ve done this in association with Deloitte, where we actually found that 66% of dads that we interviewed right across the length and breadth of the country, were actually in flux when it came to their working relationship. So, half of those had either left their job already, in order to find better work/life balance for their role as dad and work, and the other third were actually already actively looking. So together actually it’s quite interesting that it coincidentally mirrors some of that in terms of that population of people who have maybe found something in COVID, but that’s actually not necessarily created that flux situation for them. And I think now the question is how we go about retaining and actually growing on top of that talent, rather than actually potentially, as you were saying, the pendulum swinging back to this state of flux again which would be awful to see across a number of organizations.

Rob: Yeah. I mean, it feels wrong to talk about the silver lining in pandemics, but I think there is one for working parents, if as you say, it’s acted on. So, in that regard then what do you reckon organizations could and should do in order to maybe move towards that slightly more equal workplace culture? What’s the thing that you think would make a difference?

Han-Son: Three things that we often talk about with organizations. And the three things boil down to firstly listening. I think there’s a number of organizations, and we’ve both had the pleasure of working with a number of them, where they are actively listening to what their employees are telling them, what their people are telling them throughout a number of different facets. I think the thing that’s interesting with dads, is that dads aren’t always the most open initially with how they’re truly feeling. There is a bit of a brick wall and a barrier, or there can be. So, I think even creating that safe space for that initial conversation is so, so important. I think there are various ways that organizations can start to do that even better and I think there are a number of organizations that already do it very, very well.

I think once that clarity of insight from their people is really, really well understood then I think we can move on to planning, and actually what programs of activity should look like and then should feel like as well because you’ll know even better than me, a policy is one thing, but actually the human experience of it is something totally different. I think that planning in place is often actually divorced from the people who informed it in the first place. I think we’re at a stage where actually there probably needs to be a bit more co-creation and actually involving and creating new workstreams that are about organizational culture through policy and through practice is so, so important.

Then the final part is execution. There are various things whether it be about parental leave policies or flexible working policies or a variety of other things in our gamut that actually don’t necessarily go in accordance with the plan initially, but actually, that execution phase and actually sticking with a plan and sticking with a strategy is often as brave a step if not even braver than actually the policy itself in the first place.

So, I think those three things are something that I see broadly across organizations. I think we’re at a really interesting phase where I think we’ve pioneered so many different ways of communicating and collaborating during COVID. And I think there’s a great opportunity of using that same principle in terms of moving forward into this, what did you call it? Not the new normal.

Rob: The next normal.

Han-Son: The next normal, I love that. That sense of co-creating and the next normal I think is as just as important internally as it is externally.

Rob: Yeah, and a lot of what you say really resonates and at that point around certainly the policy is a policy, is a policy. It’s how that policy is interpreted, enacted and it’s not driven by a computer says no because the policy says X, Y, or Z. But it’s making that the opportunity for more skillful conversation. And there is an art, I think. People can be listened to, but not heard, and we sometimes hear a little bit of this in terms of coachees describing how there is the, sounds harsh to call it, a pretence of listening. But there is an element of we’ll do a survey, we’ll gather data, but then what comes out the other side suggests it’s not really been heard. So, there’s a tipping point where actually you go beyond what might be described as passive listening to more active, action-orientated listening that does produce some change, whether that’s through the way in which policies are enacted or used, or the options available for people or the programs or initiatives put in place to support what is not a small part of the working population.

Han-Son: Well, no. Absolutely.

Rob: So, 80% of the world’s population will be working parents at some point.

Han-Son: They say in the UK it’s somewhere between 70 and 80%, just in the UK alone. So, it’s an enormous, enormous amount of people. To come back to your point around listening. I think particularly for men and dads at work, that’s such a vital step because, I had the pleasure of going to a Better Man/Token Man panel last week and we were talking about mental health in a part of it. There was a particular chap, Josh Connolly, who made such an amazing point, which is we talk a lot about how we should create the sort of systems and processes that gets men to talk more. But actually, men are not going to talk more unless we know how to listen to them as well. And those things have to go hand in hand. And it’s exactly what you just said. I think the art of listening is such a crucial step and not just a survey that ticks a box, that has a number or a certain thing that X percentage are saying, but actually really understand the insight behind that number or that data point is so, so key.

Rob: Completely right. I mean, it’s not a tick box exercise for HR. And I think it might be controversial, but I think men do need hearing in a different way and until that’s cracked, you scratch the surface. We talk a little bit in coaching terms about the concept of afterburn which is when someone goes through a traumatic experience or a significant experience in life. Arguably you could say the pandemic has been a traumatic experience at a societal level. When people start to emerge on that and the episode has stopped there’s this emotional hangover, this afterburn. That means people are very unsure for a period of time and feeling a little bit, I don’t quite know what’s going to happen next, I want to be able to protect what I’ve gained through an experience, and it’s not going to happen overnight.

So, this idea of new year, new school term, everyone back in the offices, not going to work. It needs more consideration to that and learning from the experience which is actually the art of resilience, to be able to deal with challenges and obstacles and grow through the experience. I hope that organizations are going to do that because this part of the population is massive and if that’s gone wrong for that population then industry, performance, everything starts to crumble.

Han-Son: You’re absolutely right and I love the way you talk about resilience there as well, because looking ahead and what some of that cultural calendar as much as everything else for working parents is going to look like. We’ve got Christmas coming up, we’ve got new year coming up, and then obviously we’ve gone through next summer of a new school year, where for a number of people, that will be particularly first-time families, will be the start of more serious nursery. Then the year after that will be reception. I think the next two or three years are going to be those first formative steps for the families that have known nothing else but actually working from home in COVID and actually growing with their children through that working experience.

I think there are some very interesting bumps in the roads to navigate there that for progressive organizations, actually taking it as an opportunity as probably really, really important moments to really understand from their people what they need and when. Because particularly around time of nursery and that time of school, it all changes again in terms of what that flexible sensibility of work looks like, what actually work/life balance looks like again, what productivity and outputs and everything else start to look like and feel like. This isn’t something that I think is going to go away even in this next normal. If anything, it’s going to adapt and change as some of those big milestones ahead also adapt and change.

Rob: Yeah, it’s funny, isn’t it? We’ve had a number of working parents we’ve worked with. Moms in a lot of cases, but dads too, where there are almost two returns. Return in lockdown, and then there’s a return post lockdown and post-pandemic and that’s a very different thing. So, it’s continued change endings and new beginnings, a little bit undefined as to what that’s going to look like. You talk about some organizations have been very prescriptive: we expect you in the office two, three days a week. Others have been a lot more flexible, and I don’t think there’s a perfect model in all of this, but if we’re able to understand better the needs, it’s that much-underused leadership question: what do you need in order to be able to do your job well? What do you need in order to be the kind of dad you want to be alongside the professional that you are in this organization? And getting people comfortable and dads particularly and asking for what they need?

I do think again, that might be a cultural shift that is very slowly happening. But I had a guy I was coaching not so long ago who was tying himself up in knots because he wanted to be asking for a particular work pattern on the back of COVID, but he was desperately worried about how it would impact his career, and how would it be seen at work? He had the good grace to sit up at one point and say, oh, this is what women have been dealing with for years, isn’t it?

Han-Son: Absolutely. Absolutely. That’s such a good point that I think there is a quick win, I think, for a number of organizations of how they encourage that conversation with partners in the first place because dads don’t exist in isolation. I think this has got to be ultimately about one team whether it’s mom and dad, or whether it’s dad and dad or mom and mom or carers overall. Whatever that shape of the family looks like, organizations are actually encouraging that conversation – so, actually what is working for you and the significant other in this next normal – will actually futureproof so many of the things further down the line I think for organizations.

I think that’s the point you’re making as well, really, which is that insight isn’t just about looking back, it’s about looking forward about what’s ahead, and actually how can we best shapeshift around what’s ahead for our people. I think even that one simple step of encouraging that conversation, I think would yield so many incredible benefits for organizations and teams within those organizations. In theory, it’s such a simple thing to do, isn’t it? But I think stuff is so busy and time I know it just escapes us so much of the time. But I think just that one simple question can be such an important start point.

Rob: Yeah, and often the whole kind of common sense is really common practice and actually there is a hard edge to this beyond the moral and the ethical points of doing the right thing. There is a real risk in organizational life going forward of people choosing to take their discretionary effort to other organizations…

Han-Son: Absolutely.

Rob: …that are doing it better. So, it’s been talked about as the great resignation on the back of the pandemic. People who’ve relocated to different parts of the country or decided to make quite radical changes in life. If you want to retain talent, if you want to retain the inherent knowledge that’s embedded in a lot of working parents, you kind of, you ignore this at your peril. I think that’s where there is the opportunity for organizations to grasp the nettle a little bit and actually be brave enough to not just listen, but to genuinely hear and act on what they hear.

Han-Son: You’re absolutely right. You’re absolutely right. Obviously, I couldn’t have said it any better. I think there is a huge amount in this next normal. I love that phrase. I’m going to keep saying it now, the next normal. It presents challenges but it does present a great opportunity because the ones and the organizations and the teams that I think will get in front of it are going to be so well primed to just have an avalanche of brilliant talent coming their way, because I think there’s going to be relatively few that really do it and do it well. So, I think the ones that can take the time now and get in front of it I think will be destined for some fantastic new talent coming their way.

Rob: Yeah. A little bit of courage to really invite that from their employees is a huge difference. I’m just going back to one of the comments you made earlier, around through lockdown, there have been some reports and talk about, who was it, The Office for National Statistics talked about in the first COVID lockdown there was an increase of about 58% in childcare undertaken by men, while women still did more childcare, there was a narrowing of the gap. And I’ve heard varying slightly conflicting reports in terms of it setting some elements back, but some elements have gone forward. Are you hearing anything in that regard in terms of that equality piece?

Han-Son: Yes. I think a lot of it is true but actually coming at it from maybe different angles. So, I think depending on the survey and I’ve read the same one, the ONS one that looked at motherhood and actually the increase in childcare hours, as well as, and we’ve done our own survey that looked at fatherhood in the first lockdown, and actually a very similar rate of increase in terms of day-to-day childcare.

I think the start points for both groups are slightly different and therefore actually both percentages are equally as relevant, but actually combining them as a slightly different narrative. So, I think in trying to combine them where I’ve got to on it is that, and I think we need to be honest that throughout the country, I think particularly in that first lockdown, mothers overall still do do the vast majority of day-to-day childcare. There’s absolutely no escaping from that. And I think what’s happened is that you’ve got this new generation of fathers who actually want to and are getting more and more involved. So that increase starting from a slightly lower base is a rapid increase and it is that over 50%. But what’s true is that through the pandemic, as we’ve spent more and more time, quite literally 24/7, with our children, that increase is also true for moms.

I think what you’ve got is a case of actually both groups overall, and I’m generalizing, but both groups doing and putting more in, but it is not in every case necessarily equalling the relationship. I think both putting in more doesn’t necessarily mean equal. I think that’s the next phase which is what is that honest conversation between partners and then between organizations that actually is the equality that’s right for your family set up. Because like I said, I think you said it perfectly just now there is no one size fits all on this. What’s going to work for one family is just not going to work for another. I think as long as we’ve got thriving families and each are understanding that actually they’re comfortable, happy, thriving for themselves and their family, that can only be a great thing for each other and for their children.

But I think there’s not enough of that conversation happening. So, maybe you do have both parties feeling that they’re doing more, but actually, what are they doing together? So, less about individuals, what are they doing together that’s actually creating more of a thriving total.

Rob: Yeah. That whole team parenting thing…

Han-Son: Absolutely.

Rob: …which I think is a fascinating thing. What’s nice, I think is we’re starting to see a few more role models emerging from this whole period of time, which we’re always sort of sorely lacking. Certainly, when I coach new fathers, they’re looking for examples, particularly up the organization of fathers who are genuinely embracing and being almost loud and proud of the fact. Little things like making sure that diaries are showing that I am off to go and watch my daughter play sport after school. It’s the kind of stuff that says this is part of my identity: I am more than the human doing that the organizations pay me for, I’m a human being and this is important in my life. It’s those role models I think we need to see more of, that give confidence to dads that actually it is okay to ask for what I want, and I’m not going to get judged, I’m not going to get discriminated against, there’s not going to be a negative outcome for me actually doing what I want to do. Your point earlier on, I left the organization for my paternity leave with one job, I’ve come back with two.

Han-Son: Yes. Yes, absolutely.

Rob: How do I manage the competing demands of both of these jobs to the best of my ability?

Han-Son: It’s a funny one. I think as we’ve heard from more and more dads in the DaddiLife community, my mind just tweaked on this one a little bit actually because I think we’ve talked about before about role models and I think role models are still absolutely vital to see someone that is having success, doing what they’re doing but still being the person who you can associate with in your current predicament.

I think perhaps a wider point connects to that I think is emerging as well, which is how do dads… I think dads in particular this matters for more than ever now – how do dads bring that dad identity to work? We are so used to bringing a work identity, we’re so used to coming in, being so fixated on the inbox, what’s ahead today? What deal do I need to close? What person do I need to speak to, to get this rounded off? But actually, how many times in the day and the week, and the month, and the year even, do we actually bring our dad identity to the office or to the workspace, I should say. So, whether that’s about even talking about our children. Whether that’s about talking about the things we did with our children. Whether that’s about actually commitments that we’ve made in work that are actually related to fatherhood. So, be that about coaching someone or mentoring someone, or actually setting something up and having a conversation about parents at work.

Now I really question, and I’ll be genuinely fascinated how much of our dad identity we do bring, and whether there is room for improvement there. I think when we start to talk about it more when we start to bring that side of our humanity, you know to our teams and to the people that we work with, it’s amazing just how quickly other people in our day to day are actually attuned to that, and actually that we tend to change the conversations for ourselves around that as well.

Rob: Yeah, I think that’s really true, and I guess there’s a big piece around inclusion there and valuing the differences that the organizations inherently have. There is diversity in all organizations, but it’s inclusion that makes that diversity work really, really well. And if you are hiding part of who you are, it’s that question around how much of your whole self-do you bring to work?

Han-Son: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Rob: Again, organizations get huge richness when people bring their entirety to work, they don’t leave things outside the doors of glass and steel in the morning and then pick it up afterward. We can’t exist like that, and yet we have done for many, many, many years. That’s a lot. So, I think you’re onto something. It’s what other conditions need to exist for me to feel psychologically safe actually to talk about all of me in that context, and not just fit the organizational cultural expectation. That’s a really big one.

Han-Son: I mean, it goes back to your point really about active listening as well. If we are really as an organization truly listening to our people, it’s the sort of conversations that we should be open to as well. That actually we’re not just listening about the day job and all the demands that that has, but actually what’s happening. As much as someone is willing and obviously open to sharing it in their life as well, because that’s shaped so much of the empathy, of the collaboration, of the genuine productivity of that person. And it’s amazing how, and I even reflect on work that I’ve done in the past as well, when you start to see your colleagues as their whole self as well, it gives you a new appreciation of the things that they’re up against or the opportunities that they want, that maybe they don’t often get a chance to discuss either.

So, there’s definitely something in there and I think there’s something that organizations, the ones that can get ahead of that I think can actually – and have probably already through COVID – got snippets of some of those insights actually through how people have been working together. Maybe it’s about understanding more of that to actually see how that can be scaled right across the whole team and the whole organization.

Rob: Yeah. I mean, it does make a difference that the amount of times over COVID we’ve been doing coaching calls with people who have little ones who have been popping up on the screen and you get to see a side of people that you never get if you are having conversations in clinical cubicles in the workspace. You’re not learning about the full breadth of what someone is and who they are, and there’s never a downside to that. In a world where there’s lots of talk about AI, empathy is one of those things that can’t be replicated through artificial intelligence. It has to be a skill, almost one we need to be teaching at schools from a young age to bring out into the world.

I think that’s why I love some of the work that you do and without plugging it too much your new book which I do have on the desk in front of me, “You’re Going to Be a Dad!”, which is fantastic for its case studies, or just hearing lived experiences of other people that kind of connect at a level that means, okay, A, I’m normal because I’m experiencing the same thing. And B, I feel able to share more of that with other people by dint of hearing it. Do you know what I mean? It’s a sharing of sharing the stories. That’s what it’s about.

Han-Son: Well, firstly, I will never ever criticize you for plugging in my book, so plug away absolutely. You’re obviously right, I think it’s taken most of the year really to put together. And the reason for that is we wanted to really focus on how this book for dads could be a super, super useful resource for them, not just in pregnancy but actually throughout the first year with their children.

One of the things I think we saw time and time again with not every pregnancy book but certainly a few and actually quite a lot in the market that was funnily enough there for dads, but tonally still treating dads as a secondary parent by saying things like, all this, don’t forget to put the beers away, and quite lazy terms that really didn’t represent the quality of parent that dads really want to be.

I think on top of that we are acutely aware that there is no one size fits all when it comes to fatherhood. I think we’ve probably had quite a middle-class view of fatherhood, I think that’s been hitting our shelves over the last 10, 20 years, through a variety of dad books. I think we were really keen that actually, it wasn’t just one dad’s view, that actually we’ve had the opportunity of interviewing just over 50 dads. These are dads who’ve gone through all sorts of different things, from natural conception through to IVF, through to twins, through to ones who’ve experienced multiple miscarriages and what’s happened in their situations. And I think what we’ve done is by breaking down week by week pregnancy, and introducing lots of different dad perspectives, we’re just trying to make it real for someone that actually, no matter what you’re going through, as you said, it’s absolutely okay and that each person and family has their own journey. But to actually hear some snapshots from people that you actually might find really useful. I think particularly with a lot of their own next normal reflections and what they would do differently. And some of that is around how would they communicate with other dads? How they would set up new sorts of social networks with each other? There’s a lot around work/life balance in there. So, it started to grow to be a really useful resource and hopefully along the way that will continue because there’s nothing, I love more than just really helping out a dad. I think that’s so, so useful. That is such an important part of our mission.

Rob: Well, it is and that whole idea of leveraging collective wisdom we talk about a lot in our group coaching sessions for fathers. You can see them soaking up anything that constitutes collective wisdom because there isn’t much written about it. As you say, there’s not one book that nails it all, but actually giving people the experience of others through the written word and through the interviews that you’ve done I think is really lovely. Also, I like the fact that it’s going through week by week by week. I remember with my kids, there was lots about the size of baby, but actually, it was the emotional element as you go through each stage and the things to be thinking about. That’s the stuff that I think is the gold in this. You can move beyond the biological to the emotional to everything in-between, and that’s the bit that I think is missing or has been missing.

Han-Son: Yeah, you’re right. That’s something we’re so acutely aware of and that’s why within each chapter, we’ve got the science and psychology. We’ve got the science of what’s happening for mom and baby, told from a dad’s perspective and what dad can expect, but also what’s happening for dad, psychologically, biologically in some cases. Then obviously through the first year as well, where there are all sorts particularly in those first few days, those first few weeks, those first few months that totally shifts. So, I’m glad it’s starting to just create a slightly different conversation when it comes to early-stage fatherhood.

Rob: I know it’s a big question but what’s your best hope for the next evolution of fatherhood, based on what you’re seeing and experiencing at the moment? What do you hope for if we jump forward 18 months, two years from now? What would you want to be different?

Han-Son: Would you know. So, I wrote the book and one of the things that’s been so lovely. So, a lot of the feedback, it’s obviously dads but there’s been so much feedback from moms actually as well, who have said thank you so much for making this about one team. I think tonally and everything about the book is really about how mom and dad can come together as one team, and that is really there because that is very much the epiphany of what we see as success. Whether we can get to it short-term, I don’t know, but I think we can certainly push hard for it. And I think the more we can realize that actually, mom, dad, colleague, non-parental colleague, and the wider stakeholder, we are one team in this. I think part of that is, again what we were talking about before about understanding the whole self and how we bring that whole self and identity to work.

I think for dads in particular, who maybe have often struggled to be that person through various cultural implications beforehand, I think if we can really bring that sense and be one team and understand one team, I think that will create some good thriving families and some real thriving working environments as well. I mean, to end on one very personal story that’s in the book. There are quite a few stories in the book about postpartum depression and dads at various different stages who either recognized it or someone else recognized it for them, and the difference between the baby blues and real PPD.

And all of them have said once they were able to talk to their partner, once they were able to overcome some of the guilt they felt about even feeling this way, none of the partners had anything but incredible empathy and love and support. And actually, it’s created really strong, and dare I say, stronger relationships between mom and dad and with all of the interviews that we’ve done, we also have couples who unfortunately have split, and what’s happened. But the ones who have gone through PPD, I think they’ve retained such a lovely sense of how to strengthen relationships by having the right conversations. And I think if we can take some of those principles into the workplace, just imagine what we could start to achieve there as well.

Rob: Fantastic. That’s a lovely message of hope in terms of what that’s going to look like. Conversational skill is huge. Listen, I’m mindful of your time, and it’s been a pleasure as always to spend a bit of time in conversation with you. So, thank you so much for joining me on today’s episode of the podcast. It’s been great and we could continue on I’m absolutely sure. But keep doing what you’re doing. It’s definitely a source of inspiration for those fathers who don’t really know where to look, to get a sense of how to do this. So, more of that would be brilliant, but thank you again for your time. It’s been a real pleasure spending time with you.

Han-Son: No worries. Thanks again for having us. It’s always a pleasure to speak to you.

Rob: All right. Take good care of yourself. Cheers.

Han-Son: Cheers Rob.