The power of difference with Donna Fraser

Or read on for the transcript

 

Donna Herdsman: So, hello everybody. I’m absolutely delighted today to be the host for Talking Talent’s new podcast series, and it’s called The Power of Difference and to that, I like to add the power of different voices. So, I am absolutely thrilled as the Head of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion for EMEA here at Talking Talent to be joined today by the wonderful Donna Fraser. And yes, my name’s Donna Herdsman, her name’s Donna Fraser. We have two Donnas in the house, and I know it’s going to be a fantastic session. So, without further ado, I would like to ask Donna to introduce herself.

Donna Fraser OBE: Hi, Donna. It’s always weird saying Donna to another Donna. So, thank you so much for having me on Talking Talent, really excited about this session. So, as you already said, I’m Donna Fraser and I keep getting told off. I’ve got to add the OBE at the end to remind myself. I’m still pinching myself. I’m currently the Head of Inclusion and Engagement at Birmingham 2022, who are delivering the Commonwealth Games this year, this summer. So, that’s going to be exciting and I’m also a former athlete, a four-time Olympian in athletics.

Donna Herdsman: So, Donna, a great introduction, but I do think you are probably not saying as much about yourself so the audience can understand, or the listeners can understand one of the reasons I’m really excited to have you here today. I know you won’t mind me mentioning this, but you also like a major Olympian. Is that not true? Not just one but major and I know because you talked about it, and you support it. You’re also a breast cancer survivor.

Donna Fraser OBE: I am indeed, and I now support breast cancer now as one of their ambassadors which is obviously an experience that I’ve gone through myself. So, if I can share my experience and inspire other women just to check themselves and not only women, men as well. So yeah, that’s an experience that I will hold dear to my heart. Not a nice experience but at the same time, if I can give something back, I’m more than happy to do so.

Donna Herdsman: Thank you. I think that’s a lovely sentiment. I like to think that everybody that I know, we have that in common are designed to give something back to others and to do more than our day jobs in contributing to society. But I’m going to start with your experiences as an Olympian because I remember you told me the story once around the race, the Sydney Olympics, and being a supporter to Cathy Freeman, as well as seeking clues to achieve your own aspiration. So, I was really wondering kind of what that experience was like, what did that teach you and how do you kind of take the things you learned into kind of day-to-day life today?

Donna Fraser OBE: Oh, my goodness. Where do I start? My coach, bless his heart who passed away in 2015. He was a bit of an eccentric coach. He very much thought outside the box and would explore different ways of coaching, talk to other great coaches around the world, just so that I could be his Guinea pig almost. He didn’t actually tell me I’d have this great opportunity of training with the great Cathy Freeman that summer of 2000. It was her agent in fact, who approached me after one of my races, in the UK and said, oh, I hear you’re training with Freeman. I can’t do a very good Australian accent. And I said, really okay. Yeah, I was over the moon obviously because she was the best in the world at the time and I’m a true believer to be the best you need to surround yourself with the best as well, just to take those learnings and try and adapt and get as much as you possibly can. But it was a wonderful experience and of course, she had the world on her shoulders, Australia on her shoulders. Having the games in her home country, she was expected to bring the goal back, hence why she decided to train in the UK that summer leading up to the games. So yeah, training with her was just phenomenal. It made me realize every athlete is in the same boat. It’s who wants to put the effort and time and resilience and the determination, all those buzzwords that we hear on a day-to-day basis into one go and put it into practice.

So yeah, we spoke about everything in training apart from the Olympics and I think that’s what normalized the hot whole process. It was like another training session, give 110% every time we step foot on the track. And she’s just like me. She’s a human being, you know, but we often put our idols on a pedestal and think, oh my goodness they’re not human, but in fact they are. They have to sleep, they eat, they go to the toilet just like we do. But again, going back to what I said earlier, it’s how much effort and determination you want to get to that end goal. And yeah, I didn’t realize how fast I was getting through each training. I just was trying to give my best shot and didn’t want to embarrass my coach more so that I’d had this great op opportunity and just lagging behind and not being a team player. So, I knew Cathy Freeman years before as a junior, but having this opportunity I wouldn’t change a thing.

Donna Herdsman: Oh, that’s excellent because often in the work I do, I try to encourage people to take these opportunities when they’re presented with them and often you end up having a big conversation around the risks of taking them, the downsides of taking them. So, did you find it was quite easy for you to see the opportunity that lay ahead of you and then to grasp it with both hands as they say? What was it you told yourself to be able to push through any doubts that you might have?

Donna Fraser OBE: Oh, absolutely. I’d say it wasn’t so much an easy choice. My coach told me I was doing it and you listen to your coach. But my approach to the training was just to give everything I’ve got in every single training session because I knew what I was aiming for and that was to get to the Olympic Games and hopefully get a medal. And I say hopefully because that was the mindset and I do think that’s where I went wrong. I should have said, I’m going to the Olympics to get a medal. It was always I’ll try, or I hope to and although I was giving 110%, that mindset plays a huge percentage in terms of performance.

But in terms of going there and training it wasn’t a difficult task. It was just getting through the training sessions each time was the hard bit, to be honest. But the whole training sessions that we did were very similar to what I did before, but levels just rose. It was on a different level altogether. I mean, I’d never put my body through that at all. But as I said, the main focus was to get to an Olympic Games, do better than I did four years previously, where I just got to the quarterfinals and then just give it, keep beating my times every training session. That was my focus and not look too far afield because we can often do that, look too far ahead rather than taking those little steppingstones bit by bit.

Donna Herdsman: Now, I think that’s a great insight because I think one of the things, especially as we’re all living with COVID is that I think there’s been a great appreciation to kind of live in the moment, stay in the moment and really look at what you are trying to achieve or what you are achieving, taking your word about the importance of positive language, what you are achieving day today, which kind of takes me to my interest around the Commonwealth Games. I mean, hopefully, you saw my link to the profile. I applied for tickets and didn’t get them. So, I’ve been watching them on the television along with millions and millions of other people because it’s a really prestigious sporting competition. It comes to our shores in a time when connecting has felt so difficult person to person. So, I’m really interested in what you can share with how the preparations are going and above all why you think diversity and inclusion are such an important part of the game’s strategic intent?

Donna Fraser OBE: Oh definitely. So, Birmingham 2022 stepped in when Durban pulled out because it was originally going to be in South Africa. So, in terms of the delivery time, we’ve had less than any other games previously. But we are on target. We are on budget. There is what comes with that when you have a game in terms of less years to deliver comes to pressure. So, we are definitely seeing that since January onwards, it’s just been on a rat race. The pace has really ramped up in terms of what we are doing as an organizing committee, but our insight in terms of what we want to deliver as a game, we’re saying it’s the games for everyone. And even from my perspective, as an athlete, I always knew the Commonwealth Games as being the friendly games and it is completely different from an athlete’s perspective to an Olympic Games.

I don’t know why, but I always felt quite homely, and it was that family atmosphere, even amongst athletes and I’ve been to four Olympic Games but three Commonwealth Games and they’re completely different. But for us at Birmingham 2022 ED&I is absolutely at the core. It’s the first game where we’ve had this role with a head of inclusion and engagement in place. We’ve also got a safeguarding need the first of its time. So, they’ve really taken this, the bull by the horns, and said, this matters to us. And we are saying that it is the games for everyone where the games will be accessible and inclusive. So, that piece of work is just integral in terms of all the delivery plans that the organizing committee, functional areas, the departments as it were in layman’s terms will be delivering that ED&I is not a standalone entity. It has to be weaved into everything that they’re doing

Donna Herdsman: So, what will success look like? So, you are integrating that. Everybody always says because it’s always the key question. What does success look like? What should we be measuring? So, what would success look like when we’re watching the Commonwealth Games in the summer?

Donna Fraser OBE: That’s such a good question, Donne because that’s the same question I was asked in my interview and I said, you know what, what success will look like for me is what the community says and what the people say and they’ve had at the games, whether you’re a spectator, a volunteer, someone who’s working here at the organizing committee. Yes. We hope to fill every single seat at every single competition. But it’s the experience, that spectator experience, that official experience, that’s what successful will look like. If they’ve not had a good time, then we’ve failed as an organizing committee.

Donna Herdsman: I think that’s great insight. It’s really funny because I had the same conversation today that it doesn’t really matter what I think. As you know, I’ll have an opinion. If you ask me my thoughts, I’ll share them. But what’s really important is the impact and how other people are receiving the services you are designing, your intent, and whether or not it’s landing in the right way. There’ll be ups and downs in that journey but ultimately, it’s what is the end experience like and often it feels like people are looking for immediate gratification when both you and I know that actually, EDI or DEI. The initials are the same, but in another order that to really make change happen takes time and change is often down to how each and every one of us experiences it.

Donna Fraser OBE: Absolutely. I mean again, just going on from that point, this is why the legacy is just so important because this time next year, us as an organizing committee will not exist, but it’s what we leave behind that will be a true testament on how successful the games will be. So, the legacy part of our delivery is just as important as just delivering the games.

Donna Herdsman: Yeah. Well, I think because I had the opportunity to go to the Olympic Games 2012 when they were in London, and it’s not till you go that you can feel the atmosphere and it lays itself on you and you feel it. We went to something really obscure. A friend of ours brought us some tickets as a thank you for some support we’ve given. Well, we ended up going weightlifting, which I’ve got to tell you, I didn’t think I would enjoy it. It was fantastic. The atmosphere was great. You were cheering on everybody regardless of the country they came from because you just really wanted to see them…

Donna Fraser OBE: Yeah.

Donna Herdsman: …do their best but give of their best and know that no matter the outcome that they spent that time and effort which kind of takes me to my next question because one of the things that I’ve become more alert to, but that is because I spent some time working with English athletics this year and last year. How quickly does time flow?

Donna Fraser OBE: I know it’s scary.

Donna Herdsman: Oh, it is really scary. I was really struck by one of the things that came to the forefront which was this concept of imposter syndrome and how that can really influence you. I never thought imposter syndrome would be something that I’d receive related to sports and yet I spent time with sportspeople from all walks of the sporting life because it’s more than just sportspeople. It’s everyone in sports and et cetera and imposter syndrome was like a central facet of the discussion they wanted to have. So, really quite interested in you, given this challenge on DEI and trying to encourage people to be their best that they can be, how can we help people overcome this issue of imposter syndrome?

Donna Fraser OBE: Well, I mean, thank you as well, Donna, for supporting England athletics and it’s these kinds of conversations we need to continue to have. I always say that if you look back 20 or 30 years, things have changed so much in this space, but we’ve still got a long way to, go and sessions and workshops around female leadership are just so key. That is one of the topics that we hear about, that imposter syndrome, the lack of confidence, all of those factors that can stop individuals moving forward. But this is where sport can really bring it together and world athletics, for example, are really, really keen to support female leadership and get more females into those top roles within athletics.

Obviously, I can only speak for athletics. I’m not sure about other sports, but I know sports are really focused on D & I and D & I seems to be the hot topic at the moment over the last few years. Everyone’s talking about D & I, but what does that truly mean? And you and myself have been in this world of D & I for a number of years and we can see the pigeon steps that are being made. We should be going leaps and bounds, but at least we’re having the conversation and more of that needs to happen, especially in organizations authentically and not be a tick box exercise because, at the end of the day, we’re dealing with human beings and their personal experiences. For me, if we can create that platform to help shape their moving forward and help support them, that’s our role almost done.

Donna Herdsman: And I really love those sentiments. I think conversations are really quite critical and conversations where we listen to each other as opposed to listen to be ready to respond, which is often the case. People are so quick to tell you, it must be your problem or start questioning your lived experience that rarely do people say and what did it make you feel like? What was the impact on you? So, I think the beauty of these conversations is you can get beyond the, let me tell you my story and you can really get into and how did those things impact on you and as a result of the impact, what did you then do? Because I think it’s only when you go on that path, we begin to truly understand that words make a difference because I think we often think they don’t, but they do. But one of the things that also struck me this year in particular you know, and again, I don’t know if it’s true for athletics was that one of the concerns is that the grassroots. So, where people first get that first exposure to any sport, but especially things like athletics, that a lot of the grassroots building blocks have been affected exponentially more so than other areas by the impact of the pandemic. I wondered if you were seeing that kind of impact in the sporting world and if so, did you think there’s a parallel in the business world?

Donna Fraser OBE: Absolutely. I always say in anything that those lessons learned and experiences in sports mirror what can happen in business. I always say to athletes that I speak to you’ve got so many transferable skills that you use as an athlete that you can transfer into the world of business. But going back to your point around the pandemic, I think the pandemic really taught us a lot. Unfortunately, grassroots sport did suffer somewhat, and even elite sport did because venues were not open, which then could have led to… Well, it has led to a lot of mental health issues. So, that whole D & I conversation actually elevated almost how are we looking at each other. that connectivity and support really to the forefront. But I think for me we got to use that as a positive.

I know that unfortunately, some people lost family friends through this whole pandemic, but it’s certainly brought people together and really looking out for one another and that’s what D & I is. It’s seeing a difference in how people react to certain situations and how can you support them moving forward. But yeah, and I’ll go back to Nelson Mandela’s quote that says, “Sport has the power to change the world.” And it certainly does. The Commonwealth Games will be the first major competition in this country that hopefully, fingers crossed, will have spectators, and it will bring people together. You’ve used the Olympics as an example that how you felt. Unfortunately, you haven’t got tickets this time around, but again, there’s another opportunity for you to get involved, whether that’s watching on TV or going out in the street and watching the marathon. Who knows? But you can still feel included in this and that’s what sport brings.

Donna Herdsman: And so, you think that’s something we could also make sure comes through in business?

Donna Fraser OBE: Oh gosh. Yeah.

Donna Herdsman: I say, what do you think we can do when we’re in the business world to help drive that what feels like a feeling actually, that creates a feeling where people feel not only that they belong, but that they feel included and able actually to celebrate other people’s success, which is what I’m hearing you talk about?

Donna Fraser OBE: Definitely. I think that the best example I can give from an athlete to where I am now is a relay team. Now there are four of us in a relay team. Not all of us may have done well or even done an individual competition prior to that, but we come together to perform well and hopefully. I can use hopefully all the time, don’t I? Get that gold medal. So, if you transfer that into the world of business, you have teams, you have departments pretty much like where I am now at the Commonwealth Games. We will have different departments delivering to something. Our end goal is to give the best Commonwealth Games. Therefore, we need to work together. We need to share that baton. We need to grow together in sync to make sure that we deliver come this summer.

So, absolutely the mindset and our approach in sport are exactly the same and as you mentioned, that sense of belonging. But being included in the decision-making, understanding that conversation piece. Of course, me and my coach, for example, would have our differences, but we’d always have that conversation. Some of them tougher than others, but we were honest with each other and that’s what you also need in business, that open and honest conversation. Because otherwise, as my coach would always say to me, Donna, if you keep doing the same thing and expect a different result, that’s not going to happen. So, it’s the same thing in business. You have to sometimes navigate your way through to get a good result that you want at the end of the day.

Donna Herdsman: Absolutely, and you know, I think one of the things that you said, the pandemic’s really shown I suppose, a huge light on parts of our life, which have now come together, and I see it a lot in the business world and one of those areas is around this issue of wellbeing. I can still remember when I first met you. We first turned up for the first-ever judging session for Black British Business Awards and people kept referring to Donna and both of us would turn around at the same time. So, we got to know each other, and you were very open with me. You spoke a bit around your breast cancer challenge and the reason I want to talk about it now is now I’m really interested in the kind of support you had. So, I remember you told me about the support because we’re finding  with wellbeing still being top of the agenda there’s a real concern as people keep saying, the pandemics behind us that we are going to forget around this importance of wellbeing. So, anything that you can share with me and the listeners, I’d be extremely grateful.

Donna Fraser OBE: Oh, definitely. So, I mean, for me with that pandemic, what I was finding was exercise was my go-to, even though I do it regularly. But it’s that mental and physical side of things that I think people started to realize the impact of being stuck indoors and being told that you had to stay indoors and how just going out for a walk. I mean the influx of people walking in parks just went through the roof. But wellbeing is key in the workplace. You’ve got to have that emotional wellbeing in the workplace. You need that support network. With the example, you’ve given through my breast cancer journey. It wasn’t just the care nurse. It wasn’t just the surgeon. It was my family. It was my friends. It was my colleagues at work although I didn’t tell them in until later on in the day, simply because I just wanted to get on.

I just wanted them to see Donna not, oh, wrap me in cotton wool and oh, are you okay? Because that’s not the kind of person I am. Everyone is different, but that’s how I dealt with it. Just be as normal as you possibly can. I’ll just deal with it because it’s something that I can’t change. We’re in this situation, I just have to do what I need to do. But support network through any tough time, whether it’s at work or at home is just so, so important. The term I tend to use is the team behind the team. I had a team behind me that was when I was an athlete, when I was going through my breast cancer journey. I have a team here. You need that comfort pillow almost to either push you, support you or drag you forward to succeed. So, it’s absolutely important. I always say leadership plays a huge role in this, in setting that scene and that tone from the outset and creating that culture of your wellbeing matters. You matter as an individual. Everyone has differences. Not everyone is the same, but leadership has to create that, set that tone, and create that environment that everyone can bring, as we say, their whole selves to work.

Donna Herdsman: Yeah, and I totally with those sentiments, but one of the things that really struck me about what you said was, you decided when you were going to tell people and often I think what gets lost in the narrative, especially in the D & I space is there’s an expectation that if you get invited to have a conversational, to participate or share part of your lived story, that you have to share everything there. I like to think, and I would encourage people to think, you have to give people freedom of choice for them to decide when it’s right for them. So, I’m glad you really make the point because it’s quite subtle, but I find it can really lead to a mis-connectivity. Because on one hand, someone goes, I’ve invited you to speak and you go, okay, well this is what I want to talk about, and what they want is to hear so much more without necessarily appreciating that sharing those most sensitive parts of your life can actually result in you kind of reliving trauma.

Donna Fraser OBE: Absolutely, and this is where I think organizations play a huge role. If you create that culture and that platform that people can come forward and give as little or as much as they want to, then at least they feel comfortable doing that. But allow people to feel comfortable and that isn’t always the case. With my coach, he thought that I’d tell him everything and I did tell him everything, but if he didn’t allow me to do that, then I would’ve probably just hid away in the corner. We wouldn’t have had that honest relationship that we did have because he knew me better than I knew myself half the time. That’s that whole emotional intelligence as well, knowing your team understanding, oh, well that person’s shy. Maybe they’re better over here and understanding where they fit to be better and where they can thrive.

Donna Herdsman: I think that takes me to this point of culture because you know, often I hear people because, in their minds, they’ve got what they think is the perfect type of person and therefore what they’re looking at, people they’re looking to see whether not they fit within the parameters that they’ve predetermined for themselves. I wonder actually if that could end up with us underrecognizing the sheer volume of talent that people have within them because we are blinded by our own expectations to what talent looks like, feels like, sounds like at any given moment. One of the things that strikes me around the sport for instance is the work that’s done at community level where often people are shaping themselves wondering where they’re going. I’m seeing a move for more organizations to spend time at community level to begin to influence them. So, again, what do you think we in business can learn from sports where communit tends to be the heart of where many sporting people start?

Donna Fraser OBE: Yeah, definitely. I think you’ve hit the nail right on the head. Community is at the heart of it. So, that whole corporate social responsibility piece. Get out there and really hear those lived experiences because we can often when you’re in an organization live in your organization bubble can’t you and forget what’s really going on in the ground. Here, we’ve got a community engagement team at the moment and they’re working so hard, getting into the heart of the communities to understand what the games will bring for them and what the benefits there are. And also, really understand the challenges communities are going through because it’s easy to sit in the ivory tower and say, right, these are our goals as an organization. But is that quite landing and understood out in the communities that you are trying to serve and engage with? That’s the question mark. So, my advice to many organizations, I say it all the… Think outside the box. Think outside the box. Although you’ve got that one-track mind just think differently and again, it’s having that diversity of thought. Just take that chance. It’s not a risk, just take a chance, and often they say they get the too confused, risk and chance. You’re giving someone an opportunity. If it doesn’t work, it doesn’t work. But then at least you’ve taken that step.

Donna Herdsman: Well, because I think it’s quite easy to assume that the payback’s going to be instant, but sometimes actually the payback happens sometimes significantly later in life and I’ve heard stories and I’ve shared some of my stories with you as well, where an intervention, no matter how small paid dividends later on because what they did was plant the seeds in me and in you about actually our ability to go beyond anybody’s views of us because actually nobody understood what our ability was, including ourselves and it’s a journey of discovery. So, sitting where you are today, I guess, I’m going to ask you a horrible question. If you were to look forward in five years’ time, ideally what would you want us to be saying about the 2022 Commonwealth Games.

Donna Fraser OBE: Oh my God. That was the best Commonwealth Games I’ve ever attended, ever watched. That’s it. That’s all I’m asking for. It’s not much but I think anyone who will be engaged with the Commonwealth Games would’ve seen other Commonwealth Games. And I’d like to say, well, I know it’s a simple fact is we’ve got many firsts and when we are thinking through an ED&I lens, we are the first to have more medals for women than men. We have the first women’s cricket taking place. So, that huge focus on gender equality is really coming through. We’ve got power integration agenda for sport, which is the first, a fully integrated program. So, there’s a number of firsts and I hope people will pick up on that. So, there is that golden thread, that ED&I without even saying flashing lights ED&I that is flowing through the Commonwealth games. But yeah, in answer to your question. I would like to hear that was the best Commonwealth Games that I’ve seen or watched or been to.

Donna Herdsman: I think what strikes me and I’ve got a final question. What strikes me and what you just said because I didn’t know that. That even now in a society where we’re saying we’re striving for equity and equality, that actually some of those opportunities are quite low hanging. I mean, for instance, that we’ve got the first women’s cricket and we’re in the UK, we’ve got a women’s English cricket team that’s known for how good it is and this is the first time…

Donna Fraser OBE: I know.

Donna Herdsman: …it’s integrated in the Commonwealth Game. So, that shows to me, what it’s highlighted for me. because I didn’t know that. What it’s highlighted for me is that we have got what I’d call low hanging fruit and really sometimes as well as focusing on the big strategic intent, we have to ask ourselves why aren’t we executing on these things that are really easy for us to execute on because when we do that, we’re creating opportunity for people yet to come because they’re seeing people doing the very kind of things that either they want to do, or they didn’t know they were capable of doing and being able to turn up and shine at the Commonwealth Games and how inspirational will that be to quote, because I’m also a great Nelson Mandela lover. He talks about, when you shine your light, you give permission to others to shine theirs too. So, as we come to the close of the podcast, I’ve got one final question to you, Donna.

Donna Fraser OBE: My favorite ice cream flavor.

Donna Herdsman: No, it’s not. I know you’d like me to ask that, but I’m not going to do that. It feels like we’ve been talking about a society, about equality and equity, but more equality, less about equity. I see equity coming to its fore and rightly so right now because I actually believe you can’t have equality without equity.

Donna Fraser OBE: Without equity. Yep.

Donna Herdsman: What is it that we can do in business to learn from the sporting world and also what can we as part of society, which is what we are ultimately at the end of the day, what can we do as a society? What can we take from the sporting world and adapt and adopt to help drive forward greater inclusion for all?

Donna Fraser OBE: I’m going to just say one word, create those opportunities. It’s about opportunity. I often say if opportunity doesn’t knock make your own door. But I know from an athletics perspective, an athlete’s perspective if I wasn’t given that opportunity to train with Cathy Freeman that summer, I probably wouldn’t have made the Olympic final and you’ve got to grasp it with open arms the person who’s been given that opportunity, but the opportunities need to be put there in front of you. And I’ve said it already in terms of taking the chance, thinking outside the box, and just taking the chance. Let me do something different because you keep doing the same thing, you’re going to get the same result.

Donna Herdsman: Yeah. And I think what I love though about that same is again, it’s how really having the opportunity to be with someone who clearly inspired you as Cathy Freeman did, also helped you actually to push your boundaries in ways that you wouldn’t have otherwise known. But you’re absolutely right. If people aren’t given the opportunity, then they will never notice how far they can truly go.

Donna Fraser OBE: Definitely.

Donna Herdsman: And I think that’s going to be our takeaway from today. Provide people opportunities so they can truly explore how far they truly can go. So, with that as our final takeaway, I’d like to thank you Donna for spending time…

Donna Fraser OBE: Thank you.

Donna Herdsman: …with me today. I’ve really enjoyed our conversation. I could carry on.

Donna Fraser OBE: We could, couldn’t we.

Donna Herdsman: …with you forever and a day. I hope at some point in the future you’d be happy to come back and speak to us again after the Commonwealth Games have happened because it’ll be great to get your reflections. So, that ends today’s show. Thank you.

Donna Fraser OBE: Thank you.

Donna Herdsman: Donna Fraser OBE… Donna Fraser OBE for joining me today.

Donna Fraser OBE: Thanks so much, Donna, love speaking with you.

Donna Herdsman: I love speaking to you too.

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