Why Intersectionality is Important in the Workplace

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Andrea Palten (she/her): When professor Kimberlé Crenshaw coined the term intersectionality 30 years ago it was a relatively obscure legal concept then it went viral. So, let’s talk about intersectionality and why it is important in the workplace. To help us with this topic we have DEI expert Anu Mandapati. She leads the Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion Department at Talking Talent and she’s a head coach. Thank you so much for being here. Can you tell us more about what you’re currently doing in the DEI space?

Anu Mandapati: Absolutely. Thank you, Andrea. So, we partner with our clients wherever they are in their DEI journey to create measurable, sustainable change. That could look like creating a multi-year DEI strategy for an organization or creating coaching led programming at the individual, the small group, or team level to really embed the learning. So, we offer these opportunities to really practice. So, the learning sticks, and then people can really actually experience a more inclusive culture.

Andrea Palten (she/her): Awesome. Tell us a little bit about your background. How did you get into the DEI space? How long have you been in it?

Anu Mandapati: Absolutely. So, way back in the day, won’t tell you the date, but I actually started off in mental health and I was really focused on making sure that we were up-skilling our staff to really provide culturally competent services to our clients. So, DEI, whether it was in mental health or leadership development to where we are today has always been in the foundation of everything that I’ve done. I really see inclusive leadership as leadership. They’re not two separate topics and so as we move into leadership and leadership I’m not talking about the actual role. I think everyone is a leader and so how can we be more inclusive? So, it was just kind of a nice journey that just kept evolving into where I am now, where I partner with leaders and teams and organizations to really make sure that we are creating those cultures where people can thrive.

Andrea Palten (she/her): Yes, and you are awesome at it. I love watching you and action. I have learned so much so I’m so glad you’re here on this podcast. Let me ask you first, what is intersectionality? Do you have a definition for us so we can really understand it?

Anu Mandapati: Absolutely. It’s interesting because I think sometimes people get a little confused of what it actually is. So, intersectionality is a lens through which you can see where power comes and collides, where it interlocks and intersects. So, you mentioned Kimberlé Crenshaw. The way Kimberlé defines intersectionality is the interconnected nature of social categorizations like race, class, and gender as it applies to individuals or groups. Then how does this create overlapping interdependent systems of discrimination or disadvantage? So, really what we’re talking about is intersectionality is a lens for really seeing the way in which some forms of inequality may often operate together, and they exacerbate each other. So, we tend to talk about race inequality as something separate than inequality based on gender class, sexuality, immigrant status, et cetera. But what’s often missing from these conversations is that some people actually experience all of these, and the experience is not just the sum of its parts.

Andrea Palten (she/her): Yes. So, when they, when they start putting DEI strategies in place, do they know about this most of the time, or is it something that gets overlooked when they first get started in this?

Anu Mandapati: I think some people are very much aware and they’re being intentional, and some people don’t see it. So, when you think about just diverse representation, such a big push for it especially right now, and there are over 36 dimensions of diversity. A lot of people are paying attention to the visible dimensions of diversity like gender, age, ethnicity, and not looking at the intersectionality piece. So, I mean, we’ve worked with certain clients over the years where they’ve made a lot of progress with respect to gender, but you actually take a look at that specific data. When you look at the gender data, dig a little bit deeper it’s actually that white women, for example, have been promoted or they’ve been hired more often as opposed to missing that intersectionality piece. I think that’s why it’s so important. So, some people are more intentional and they’re more aware, but some people are just so focused on let’s just get more diverse representation through the door, that they’re not looking at that intersectionality lens.

Andrea Palten (she/her): Yeah. It’s interesting because let’s get a little personal here. Both you and I have some intersectionality’s going on. I’m a woman and I’m also an immigrant. When people look at you, what do you think they see? Do you think they see both? What parts do you think that people pick up on?

Anu Mandapati: Well, something that you know, that many people may not know about me is that I moved to the US when I was five. When people see me, they don’t see me as someone who grew up somewhere else or who was born somewhere else. So, it’s, you’re American. You don’t really sound like an immigrant. You don’t sound like an Indian, whatever that looks like for them. So, I think how we get seen when people don’t know us is different than when people actually start to connect with us and find out our stories. We all start to share because we all have diverse experiences, and we all have intersectional identities and looking at what’s that interplay among all of them. Because again, when we talk about identity, there are over 36 dimensions of diversity but most of the time we’re looking at just the visible or what we can hear or what we can see.

Andrea Palten (she/her): Yeah. It’s so interesting for me that there are just so many people that identify with one thing, but then when they really think about it, a lot of us, most of us have some type of intersectionality that needs to be looked at. So, can you tell us a little bit about why companies can’t afford to ignore intersectionality at work?

Anu Mandapati: Absolutely. The thing that I want to really emphasize here is what are the systems at play when we look at intersectionality? So, when we think about bias when we think about how these different systems are operating together and exacerbating each other like what I was sharing earlier. They are creating, overlapping interdependent systems of discrimination or disadvantage and I think that’s why it’s so important for companies to pay attention because there are so many factors that makeup someone’s identity. If we don’t recognize that then we’re not seeing people for who they are, what they’re experiencing, what we can do in the workplace to create more inclusive, equitable cultures. When people aren’t seen and their needs aren’t met this affects a person’s mental health, emotional health, physical health, productivity, morale, retention. So, it significantly impacts a person which significantly impacts the entire organization.

Andrea Palten (she/her):  Oh, I’m sure. I feel like there’s this piece of you that is being ignored that is something that might be really important to you, so I love that. As a staff member or as an employee, do you think it’s up to them to bring it up if the leadership is missing that piece or it hasn’t been addressed yet, or do you think that’s more a leadership thing that they should be addressing?

Anu Mandapati: I am such a big proponent that culture is co-created and it’s really up to all of us to create equitable inclusive cultures. So, if we’re looking at someone and actually getting to know that person and their lived experiences, not only preorganization but in the organization that they’re in then we’re going to understand better what do we need to change? What’s working really well and what do we need to look at? That’s a little bit different and so I think it’s absolutely the responsibility of the organization, but it’s also how do we get people to share more about their experiences in the workplace, so we know what it is that we need to shift. That’s an and but it’s still, I would say organization and leaders that’s their responsibility to be paying attention to what are the decisions that I’m making? Am I making equitable inclusive decisions? Am I really looking at people for who they are? Am I creating that psychological safety? Am I looking at the processes and systems that are in our department or in the organization and what are things that we need to start changing and looking at in a very different way?

Andrea Palten (she/her): Yeah. So, you’re starting to give me some methods on how to promote intersectionality in the workplace. For anybody that’s listening, especially people that are in the DEI space or people that are HR leaders, what are some methods that they can promote this in the workplace?

Anu Mandapati: Well, we’re talking about intersectionality, and I think we’re talking about also just seeing people for who they are, their whole selves, and when we talk about every organization wants people to be able to show up as their full, authentic selves, but what are we actually doing to really create that kind of culture? So, at an organizational level, again, what are those systems, what are those processes that we need to shift to have that look a little bit different. When we’re reviewing data when we’re looking at goals, how do we approach that with an intersectional lens? So again, what’s working really well, what needs to shift, and I would say, as we create these who are we paying attention to, and who are we ignoring. What harm are our systems and our processes perpetuating?

So, that’s what I would say at the organizational level. Just to drill that down to that team and that individual level, I think all of this is about understanding someone’s experience. So, it’s about seeing who they truly are. Are we taking the time to understand how we’re making decisions, understand the impact of the decisions that we are making? What’s the impact that we’re having? So, when we look at promotion practices, hiring practices, how we are assigning or deploying people to certain engagements what’s the bias or biases that are creeping up in those conversations, in those interactions, in those decisions, and then what do we need to do differently? All of this part of it is self-awareness. Its intention is great but it’s not going to move the needle unless you actually have action that you start to take.

Andrea Palten (she/her): Yeah. So, what happens if the needle is not moving and people are getting ignored and staff that has the intersectionalities are just not being heard, what happens to that staff?

Anu Mandapati: I mean, if you look at a variety of organizations, let’s talk about the tech industry, for example. So, it was Google and Apple and all these major tech organizations, I believe it was around 2014/15 when they first released their diversity data, their transparency reports. In five years, when you look at what progress was made there wasn’t a lot. If you look at the Latinx and black populations within the workforce, I believe that in a five-year period there was, in most of those organizations, I believe it was less than 1% increase. So, if we’re not looking at creating equitable inclusive cultures, nothing’s going to change. There’s such a push for diverse representation so companies are just really trying to just get people in through the door. No one’s going to stay unless you actually change the culture, so people want to stay.

The place where they feel like they belong. They can be themselves where they’re celebrated, valued, appreciated, cared for. If leaders and organizations don’t make those shifts, then you’re not honoring anyone as far as all of who they are. They’re not able to really bring who they are, and a lot of the time people are wearing masks or they’re not able to show up as who they are so they’re going to be more disengaged. Morale is going to go down. Productivity is going to go down; retention is going to go down. So, it’s in the best interest of an organization to focus on building equitable, inclusive culture on the team level as well as the organizational level but it’s also the right thing to do. People are the biggest asset of any organization. So yes, there’s a business imperative, it’s also just a human imperative. It’s just the right thing to do.

Andrea Palten (she/her): The right thing to do. I love that. So, you mentioned in the past we didn’t really look at intersectionality. Now that we are, there’s just so much change in the DEI space. Can you tell us a little bit about what the future holds for us in this space and what this is going to look like in a couple of years? I know you don’t have a crystal ball, but what are you seeing? What are some trends that you’re seeing?

Anu Mandapati: The big push again I’d say is people are focusing on diverse representation. They’re not focusing on retaining talent. They’re not really focusing on what do we do to really shift that culture. People may think they’re focusing on retaining talent, but clearly, we’re looking at a mass exodus in organizations. So, people have the option to opt-out. If people have the option to move to another organization that actually does practice what they preach of having equitable cultures they’re going to move to it. So, I think it’s really about looking at practices. What are we doing and what can we, what can we do differently to really enhance the employee experience, so people want to stay? That’s one piece of it.

The other piece, I think, is just really looking at root causes of these challenges and in so many organizations, I see, let’s just say pipeline problems. I’m not even talking about getting people through the door, but like when people are there if there is within senior-level leadership roles or higher-level leadership roles when you’re looking at the data and they’re seeing that there’s not a lot of diversifications, the first thing you do is put out a leadership program there. I think leadership development, that’s my background. I think everyone can benefit from that but is that the real root cause if you have a leadership development experience for your diverse talent? Well, no, the real root cause is looking at, what are we doing to help the leaders who are letting bias creep into their decisions?

So, similarity bias, we’re hiring people who look like us, think like us, talk like us, walk like us. So, all you’re going to do is get a more homogenous workforce as opposed to a more diverse workforce. So, are we helping leaders to look at their bias and actually holding them accountable? So, I think one thing we’re going to see more of which we’ve already started to see is organizations really looking at leadership competencies at every single level of the organization from individual contributor to executive leadership. When it comes to performance review time really making sure that they’re being held accountable and tying this behavior shift to compensation. When that happens, you start to see a lot of momentum and shifting of culture in organizations. So, I think that’s something to look out for as well.

Andrea Palten (she/her): Yeah. So, what happens to organizations that don’t have the right people in place to be teaching or coaching this? What do they do?

Anu Mandapati: They need to seek people out like us. I mean, it’s really making sure that you have partners that can help guide you throughout this process. So, one of the things I really love about the work that we do, there are so many organizations that come in or maybe even if you’re just doing it within the organization internally. People are focused on learning but typically it’s one and done and nothing shifts six months later, a year later, two years later. So, the model that I really emphasize here is really our Learn, Amplify and Sustain Model. So, how do we focus on learning those behaviors to create a more inclusive culture and then what are we doing to amplify that learning, and then how do we sustain it whether it’s six months out or a year or two? How do we create measurable, sustainable change?

So, if it is some form of a workshop where you’re learning new behaviors where is that accountability? Where is that practice? How do you go in deeper? So, a part of that could be individual coaching, team coaching, small group coaching but the other piece of it is at that team level most people spend most of their time with their teams. So, that’s a great opportunity to really help co-create that culture, set a commitment to each other on the team of here’s what we want this to look like, and then let’s hold each other accountable. Let’s really support one another and since this is in your day to day, that practice just happens naturally and practice is what actually leads to progress.

Andrea Palten (she/her): So, do you come in once, you train people, you coach people and then you go away, or is that something that has to be done year after year or month after month even?

Anu Mandapati: It’s a journey. There is no destination of we’re very inclusive, check, we’re done. So, what does that look like again? So, that’s why I go back to learning that amplification. How do we continue to amplify that learning and then sustain it? So, if we’re doing that at a team level where we’re holding others accountable based on what we’ve just learned and what we’ve committed to then that sustained beast can look a couple of different ways, just the learning aspect of it, what is that digital learning that supports it. But in addition to that, what we just talked about of if this is tied to your compensation and to performance reviews that behavior shift will change. So, as an organization, are you going to take performative actions, or are you actually committed to creating an equitable inclusive culture in the long run? Not just something temporary for a month or two until my annual survey goes out and then we get the feedback that we want because we know that if we don’t create these types of cultures people aren’t going to stick around. I mean we’re talking about six figures to replace one person when you look at hiring onboarding training, all of those pieces retaining someone. So again:

1.  It’s in the best interest of an organization

2.  It’s also the right thing to do.

Andrea Palten (she/her): So, if the HR person that’s in charge of this they’re saying this is the right thing to do. We need to have better practices in my company, but their leaders or maybe their one leader does not agree. How does she or he explains the importance of this and why they need coaching especially if the leader doesn’t agree? Because we have a lot of HR listeners and that is in this boat that needs to upsell this internally to their bosses.

Anu Mandapati: I don’t think that anyone’s going to disagree. I think it’s about readiness to commit. What’s the investment that you’re willing to make. There are so many business goals that are front and center. How does this become one of them? This can’t be something way back there, it has to be upfront. So, it has to be part of an organizational strategy. It can’t be something separate. So even when I think about organizations that have a dedicated Chief Diversity Officer or a DEI team, creating these inclusive, equitable cultures is not the responsibility of one person or a team. It’s the responsibility of the entire organization. I mean the best way that I would have a conversation with a leader who’s saying, I don’t know if I want to invest in this. What’s the cost going to be too is what I would ask because we’re not talking about this one specific moment. But in the next three months, the next six months, and the next year, what’s the cost if you don’t actually invest in this type of development and in shifting of culture. When you start looking at the numbers, it’s a pretty easier sell than you think.

Andrea Palten (she/her): What is the cost? I love that. I want to end it here, but before we end it where can people find you if they want to get in contact with you?

Anu Mandapati: LinkedIn is a great place and then we can also obviously put in our email address to get connected, but I’m always happy to connect and be that thought partner because I think one thing I’ve realized is, in this space, it’s very challenging. So, just even having someone to be your sounding board, to really just bounce ideas off of and just share it because we’re all in this together. I get the challenges and so doing this with somebody and going through this journey makes it a lot easier and a great way to just think of new strategies, new ideas of how to tackle some of these situations and problems.

Andrea Palten (she/her): Amazing. We’re going to have you back multiple times because we need you as the DEI expert to really lighten or shine a light on some of these topics that are not that openly discussed. So, thank you so much. We really, really appreciate your time.

Anu Mandapati: Yeah. Thank you.